Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of Booker and Donna Reaves by Mr. Ashlin Smith and Ms. Jean Hiatt of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on September 8, 1994. (Oral History)
Biographical Information Booker Reaves, who was raised in the Ridge Street neighborhood, was a pioneering black educator in Charlottesville and was the principal of the Jefferson School before and during integration in the 1950s. His wife, Donna Reaves, also worked at the Jefferson School (and later at Albemarle High School) and together they raised four children on 755 Ridge Street. The Reaves discuss schooling before and after integration, social and commercial life in and around Ridge Street, and their experiences as black educators and community members in a racially divided society. The interview covers topics including the development of the Ridge Street neighborhood, recollections from the Jefferson School, Howard University and the University of Virginia, and details about businesses and commerce in Vinegar Hill. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Q1:	This is an interview of Booker Reaves and Donna Reaves at 104 Buckingham Road, Charlottesville, Virginia. By Jean Hyatt and Ashlin Smith on September 8, 1994.
Q2:	Mr. Reaves, one question we're wondering, were you born in Charlottesville and where?
BR:	I was born in Free Union, Virginia which is about twelve miles out.
Q2:	And then did you grow up in Free Union or did you or then you came to Charlottesville?
BR:	I left Free Union - my family left Free Union and - for about six months we lived in Buffalo, New York. And then my mother didn't like it there - therefore we back to Charlottesville in 1924.
Q2:	And then did you move to - is that when you moved into Charlottesville in 1924? And where did you live when you came back to Charlottesville? Is that -
BR:	We lived in several locations because they they sold the home place in Free Union...
Q2:	Mm-hm.
BR:	Because it took a little while to find what they wanted when they came here in Charlottesville. So I lived for a while on 1st Street and then we moved to Focus (?) Street and then to Ridge Street.
??:	And Hartman Mill Road.
BR:	Oh yes. Right.
Q2:	Hartman Mill but you were right near Ridge Street on Hartman Mill.
BR:	Yeah.
??:	You were across from Mr. Payne. The house next door to them.
Q2:	Next to Mr. Payne. And what were you parents names?
BR:	My - my parents?
Q2:	Yes. Your parents.
BR:	Our mother's name was Lottie, L-o-t-t-i-e and my father's name was Lewis, L-e-w-i-s.
Q2:	And what your mother's family name?
BR:	Adams.
Q2:	Adams? Were they from -
BR:	Free Union.
Q2:	Free Union? Were they born in Free Union? So your family has been here for a long time.
BR:	Right.
Q2:	What - what kind of work did they do - your parents?
BR:	What?
Q2:	What kind of work did your parents do?
BR:	My father worked at the - the University of Virginia Hospital for forty-five years I believe.
Q2:	Uh huh.
BR:	Tried his best to work for the city of Charlottesville on the maintenance department and then had an injury so he had to stay off for a year.
Q2:	Then he went to the University after that, did he do maintenance at the university?
BR:	Yes.
Q2:	And how about your mother - did she work outside the home?
BR:	No.
Q2:	How many brothers and sisters did you have?
BR:	One brother and four sisters.
Q2:	Did they end up in Charlottesville or did they go other places?
BR:	Most of them went other places.
Q2:	Mm-hm.
DR:	I don't think any of them went other places. Your sister inaudible - gives name of his sister - Anna Lou? she was the only one who went other places. The others of them...
BR:	That's what I mean by...
Q2:	Did other families stay in that area?
DR:	Mm-hm.
Q2:	Would - did they - any other family members live in the Ridge Street area when they grew up or didn't they stay in the Ridge Street area?
BR:	Some parts of it - I have a sister with her family that lives on Hartman Mill Road since the same thing (?) -
Q2:	No kidding. What - what family - what's the that last name?
BR:	Payne.
DR:	Walter Payne's wife.
Q2:	Oh. Walter Payne's wife is your sister? That's exciting. So you have a lot of background in Ridge Street, then. A lot of families. Umm, we wanted to know about something about memories of your childhood and on Hartman Mill Road. How old were you probably when you moved to Hartman Mill Road?
BR:	About eight or ten I think.
Q2:	Oh, you were very, very young? And do you remember what the address was?
BR:	One eighteen.
Q2:	One eighteen.
BR:	Yeah. And the house is still there.
Q2:	Still there. Is it a -
BR:	Next door to Walter Payne. A big white house.
Q2:	So it's a very old house? Do you think it - do you have an idea how old it is?
BR:	Oh no. I guess this - the house must be seventy-five years old.
DR:	More than that.
BR:	More?
DR:	It was old when you all moved into it.
Q2:	It might be a (Inaudible)
DR:	I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it.
Q2:	It's an old house. So we should go look at it.
DR:	I would think it was more than that. The house on Ridge Street that we lived in - that house is over a hundred years old.
Q2:	It's a old - is it a frame house, an old white frame house?
BR:	It's a white frame - there's metal siding on it now.
Q2:	Did your parents, did your parents buy the house?
BR:	Yeah.
Q2:	Oh. And -
BR:	And remodeled it.
Q2:	And they remodeled it? Added on rooms and so forth or?
BR:	No. They didn't have to add on but they just did some remodeling. They added a bath.
Q2:	How were they able to - to buy the house? Did they get a - would they have to go to a bank and get a loan? I mean I know that used to be difficult to do?
BR:	Well they had some money left from the place they sold out at Free Union.
Q2:	Oh yes.
BR:	And they bought this place with that.
Q2:	Do you, do you... Are there some childhood friends of yours that - that you remember, especially, that would be interesting to tell us about that lived on Ridge Street or near Ridge Street?
BR:	I don't believe that I know any that are living. See I'm seventy-eight years old.
Q2:	They don't have to be living
DR:	Herbert Porter still lives there.
BR:	Herbert Porter is still living. He still lives in Harman Mills.
Q2:	No kidding. Herbert Porter?
BR:	Yes.
Q2:	And he was a friend of yours when you were a child?
BR:	I knew him. Yes.
Q2:	Ok. Go ahead ask him.
Q1:	Your friends wouldn't have to be living now. If you remember the boys or girls that you grew up with -
DR:	(Inaudible) -
	(INAUDIBLE SECTION OF TAPE. - last nearly a minute - Donna Reaves talking about her childhood?)
	(TAPE TURNED OFF.)
BR:	Winston Coles.
Q2:	Winston Coles?
BR:	Winston Coles. He lived on Langford Avenue which is close to Mill Road. And -
Q2:	He was a - so he was a playmate of yours or a childhood friend?
BR:	We finished high school together.
Q2:	Oh. So it was high school.
BR:	And -
Q2:	Well if you - some names that I - we've interviewed Virginia Ross who's name was Molly Burton's daughter?
DR:	She was a classmate of mine.
Q:	Uh huh. A little younger.
DR:	When we were young, we went to school together.
Q:	Uh huh.
BR:	Who was that?
DR:	Virginia Ross. Virginia Thomkins Ross.
Q2:	She's a younger person. Okay.
BR:	(Inaudible) - up there it's still about the environment and stuff. Up near Pymnum.
Q2:	Barnum?
BR:	P-y-m-n-u-m. Lives on Ridge Street. And -
Q1:	Did he have a sister named Amy, Annie Pymnum?
DR:	Probably his mother. Annie Pymnum was his mother.
Q1:	(Inaudible) -
A:	Um-hmm. She had a sister but I don't remember her name. (Inaudible) are sisters.
Q1:	Sisters?
DR:	(Indicates, yes.) She had a sister, a little red-headed girl. I remember her very well. I don't recall - she was younger than I.
Q2:	Well, do you have some - any other friends you might want to mention besides Winston and Alfred and Herbert?
BR:	No. In that area I don't have other -
Q2:	Okay. That's good. Maybe you could tell us something, about what you did when you were a child, interests you had or things that people did at the time? Did you have to work a lot on - in your big - big piece of land? Do you have a garden or -
BR:	Yes. My mother and father had quite a garden there - to have the food before all the - they changed it.
DR:	Those were - where have - that land was inherited. They left that land to you. They - all of that land, they left to their children. From - every child had a piece of land.
Q2:	Mr. Booker's parents? That's wonderful. But anyway they passed it on?
DR:	They passed it.
Q2:	So the - a large garden.
BR:	What?
Q:	You had a large garden?
BR:	Yeah. Before that happened.
Q2:	Um-hm.
BR:	A piece of land from one end of the three or four acre space, to the other end of it. And then back it joined the land on Franklin Avenue.
Q2:	Uh-huh That's large.
DR:	We had fruit trees down in the back.
BR:	There was - there was no city water down there. We had large springs that had - that had to built up and next year was not supposed to go over a (Inaudible). They'd have a trough and then this milkcow. And that's where they'd keep the milk, because they'd - they'd keep it cool in this spring box we'd call it.
Q2:	Well did - did you sell the milk or was it just for your family?
BR:	Just the family. We had one cow.
Q2:	One cow?
BR:	Only one cow to get the milk from.
Q2:	Yes. That's nice. Did you have other animals like chickens and -
BR:	Oh yes. Chickens, geese.
Q2:	(Indicates, yes.) It was like a little farm, really.
BR:	We had pigs...
DR:	Guineas. I remember the guineas in my family.
Q2:	That's wonderful. Did it -was - did you have chores that you would have to do?
BR:	At home?
Q2:	(Indicates, yes.)
BR:	I had - yes. Chores at home, and then I went out to work when I was about ten years old.
Q2:	Wow. What did you do?
BR:	I worked for a family that lived on Ridge Street. See Ridge Street was all white out as far as Frankford Avenue.
Q2:	(Indicates, yes.) What family did you work for? Do you remember their name?
BR:	The Gleasons.
Q2:	The Gleasons? They're famous aren't they?
BR:	Yes.
Q2:	Was it - what - what - was a - the father's name?
BR:	Emmitt.
Q2:	Emmitt? I - I have his name down other people have mentioned him. He was a mayor wasn't he, at one time?
BR:	At one time.
Q2:	So you worked for him off and on for many years or just a -
BR:	I worked for his family because they had two children and before I would the mother came to my home upon the hill looking for somebody to take care of just David on Sunday.
Q2:	On Sunday?
BR:	Uh-huh. It seems to me I might have gone to work that following Monday. To take care of Davie. That's what I did for them, taking care of David.
Q2:	Child Care?
BR:	Yeah. Then I was doing other chores in the house - cleaning and cooking and I really wanted to (Inaudible) - while I was working there.
Q:	No kidding?
BR:	And going to school of course.
DR:	Driving.
BR:	Uh-huh.
Q2:	There were cars? What - what the date when you were young - give me an idea of what - of what decade we're talking about. It was in the 1920's?
BR:	Not in the '20s, perhaps the '30s.
Q2:	Okay. So there were cars around.
BR:	What's this?
Q2:	You had cars? I mean people had cars at the time.
BR:	Uh-huh. They had a store downtown called (Inaudible - name of the store?).
Q2:	Which is still there?
BR:	Yes. Were the oldest thing now. It's on Garrets Street, the one that (Inaudible - name of a person) bought had was on Main Street - the corner of Main and Fourth.
Q2:	Oh.
BR:	You didn't grow up here. You're not from Charlottesville.
Q2:	No but I know a lot about Charlottesville, just from, you know, being - I've been here for over ten years. Actually how many years has - it's thirty-five years.
Q1:	Thirty-five years. You're learning.
Q1:	I'm learning.
Q2:	She's been here thirty-five years?
BR:	And you don't remember Gleasons?
Q1:	I remember Gleason's farm machinery and seed. And just picking up grocery stores?
DR:	Right across from, you remember Brown's?
Q1:	(Indicates yes.)
DR:	And right across from Brown was H. M. Gleasons' Grocery Store.
Q1:	I see.
DR:	And there was a large grocery store right at that corner.
Q1:	I see.
DR:	And that's where Gleason was at - whatever.
Q2:	On Main and Fourth, is that where the people from the Ridge Street area would shop? At that store?
BR:	People from all over town. Everybody.
DR:	They were mostly - people dealt with H. M. Gleason were people that were probable here in the University, and some people from River Road.
Q2:	Right.
DR:	And so they dealt there and
BR:	Most of them used the big stores that lived on Ridge Street.
Q2:	That's very interesting, I think.
DR:	Now have you all (Inaudible) -
Q1:	No. No we have not.
DR:	That's Marjorie Hicks. Those are people that - she's still here. And she still lives on Ridge Street. Marjorie. Marjorie Hicks.
Q2:	All right. Unless they have a business?
DR:	Those are the people that Marjorie lives with. Those people should -
Q2:	Well, we -
DR:	They could tell you all about those businesses because they was something.
Q2:	Well that's good. That's how we get names to so we can keep going. That's - that's really helpful.
Q1:	That's very good.
Q2:	And it's fun to hear about names from more than one person too, I think.
DR:	I'm trying to think of someone else who still lives up there.
Q2:	Well, Miss Therese did you have - did you - were there horses and carriages when you were little or were they gone?
MT:	That's gone.
Q2:	Okay. This is more developed. The people that lived - where did you a, where did people go shopping for groceries and clothes? Was it Gleasons'?
BR:	No. People who live on Ridge Street?
Q1:	Yes. Where did the black people -
DR:	They're talking about where you all went shopping. You all didn't go downtown. Mr. Gleason wasn't always down there. But up on Vinegar Hill, you were telling me the other day some place you went shopping. Up on - Redgish's. R-e-d-g-i-s-h.
Q2:	R-e-d -
BR:	R-e-d-g-i-s-h. It was right on top of that hill. Beginning of the black section of Vinegar Hill.
Q2:	Okay.
DR:	And the bakery, that was Smith's Bakery.
BR:	That's right.
Q2:	Smith's Bakery?
DR:	They made mostly bread.
BR:	The Smiths who owned the bakery lived on Harris Street.
Q2:	Did - were most of the stores right in Vinegar Hill then?
BR:	Most of them in Vinegar Hill were black places.
Q2:	Right.
BR:	Up from - the beginning of Inge's. Have you heard of Inge's Store?
Q1:	Yes. I've heard of Inge's.
BR:	Of Inge's Store on down to Vinegar Hill.
Q2:	What does his - what did he sell? Mr. Inge? What kind of -
DR:	That was a grocery store.
Q2:	That's grocery too?
DR:	That's grocery store. Chicken.
Q2:	He's the famous one - that family's pretty well known. Chicken soup. Huh. That's cool.
DR:	It's a bowl of soup.
Q2:	Yes. And you went to Jefferson?
BR:	School.
Q2:	Yeah. Did you go there? What did they - how did you get to school?
BR:	Walked.
Q2:	Walked. And as I understand the roads were not paved past, was it Langford Avenue? They paved that-
BR:	Hartman Mill Road.
Q:	Hartman Mill Road. And then it stopped.
BR:	And then up Ridge Street. Jefferson School locatated where it was. But that's a different building than where I first went.
Q:	It is?
BR:	Yes. See, that was built in 1927.
Q2:	And the other building was that - was it a little building in the front of it that was torn down?
DR:	It was a big building.
BR:	With eight rooms.
DR:	It had eight rooms. But the rooms were huge. The rooms was half the size of this house. And of course the basement flooded.
Q2:	That's not inside of the brick building? I thought it -
DR:	No, no. No, no. This was the building that faced on Fourth Street. You know where you turn into to go to the supermarket?
Q2:	Yes.
DR:	That same place where you turn in there was a part of the old Jefferson School.
Q1:	Well it's gone. The old building is gone.
Q2:	Did you have - when you were going, did they have school up throught 12th grade by that time? I know that they only had it through 8th grade at one point.
BR:	No. When I went to the - it was through the 11th.
Q2:	Through the 11th?
A:	Yes.
Q2:	And then what happened?
BR:	I went to college.
Q2:	You skipped the twelfth grade. Where did you go to college?
BR:	I went to Hampton University.
Q2:	Uh-huh.
Q1:	Uh huh. The eighth grade was comparable to the first year in high school.
Q2:	Everybody just stopped at 11th?
DR:	Everybody stopped at 11th.
Q2:	So you graduated from Jefferson?
BR:	Uh-huh.
Q2:	I talked to Pocahontas Sellers, and she said she was the first - she was in the first graduating class -
BR:	(Indicates yes.)
Q2:	Which was like 19 -
BR:	Thirty.
Q2:	Thirty. She wasn't sure if it was twenty-nine or thirty? So - and I know people had before they had to go away to school -
BR:	Yes.
Q2:	- if they wanted to complete their education. Well when you were growing up did you feel the effects of segregation? Did you, I mean did it bother you as a young person, or did you just go on with your life? No one was angry about it?
BR:	It's part of - it's part of - I knew in parts of this country that there was lots of resistance. But I knew that there wasn't anything that I could do at that time. And, of course, the organization that really got it started was the NAACP. That was -
DR:	My husband came back here after finishing college, and came back to teach at Jefferson. And then from there, he was the principal of Jefferson. And then he became the assistant. So his life has been spent working at Jefferson.
Q2:	Did you go to the Jefferson reunion this past weekend?
BR:	We didn't go we - she was chairman of it -
DR:	No, I wasn't the chairman, I was on the committee when they had it in 1990. Yeah.
Q2:	The just recent one?
DR:	Ninety.
Q2:	Well, you - so you went to Hampton as an undergraduate?
BR:	An undergraduate.
Q2:	And then did, did you end up going to the University of Virginia at one time?
BR:	Uh huh. (Inaudible)
Q2:	And they gave him this, this year? And - so this award was just given, it says September third. "Awarded to Mr. Booker Reaves in recognition of his many years of his dedication to the field of education and leadership as principal." Presented by Jefferson High School alumni. That's wonderful.
BR:	Uh huh. SHe really wanted to hear that on the tape.
Q2:	Well we can look at that at the end of this. So you for two - you received your bachelor's degree from Hampton.
BR:	Uh huh.
Q2:	And then how did you manage - how does it happen that you went to the University of Virginia?
BR:	Well I started going -
Q2:	Was it integrated by that time?
BR:	I started going to Howard University.
Q2:	For your graduate work?
BR:	What?
Q2:	For your graduate work?
BR:	Graduate work.
Q2:	Uh huh.
BR:	Because it was - well, it was a little money to get your graduate degree.
Q2:	Right. It's still the case.
BR:	I was in the principalship at that time, and there was a - there was a need to have a degree, and so I went to the Unviersity, in what year?
DR:	Well you got a master's degree in fifty-five.
Q2:	Oh. Not that long ago. From the University of Virginia?
BR:	Uh huh. So I was the first black -
DR:	From Charlottesville.
BR:	From Charlottesville.
Q2:	Wow.
BR:	To - that went there. And we always say black instead of Afro-American.
Q2:	Well, it keeps changing, so it's easier to say that. So you did like, maybe part of your degree with Howard University and then you finished at UVA. Did you go -
BR:	Well I couldn't transfer anywhere. They didn't accept any credits from Howard.
Q2:	No kidding.
DR:	(Inaudible)
Q:	So you had to start all over again?
DR:	That's just the way it was then.
Q2:	Well if he was the first person -
DR:	From Charlottesville.
Q2:	From Charlottesville.
DR:	Because see, you put things in the paper and you say the first person, and people will look at it and say, well that isn't true.
Q2:	First person from Charlottesville? That's still really significant.
DR:	Yes. Significant and true.
Q2:	Where did - did they have black students in the undergraduate program at the time or just in the graduate program?
DR:	No. No undergraduate students at that time I don't think. When did all those children come in, all those kids?
BR:	Well when the Supreme Court decision came down, it was after that the black students started classes.
Q2:	Was that in 1954?
DR:	Fifty-four. But it was some time before they started. I don't know about them because they were children to me. You know, I had a daughter who was almost three. And I don't think, now I'm not sure on this, so don't put that down, that I'm not sure when those children came in. You know, like Barbara Bland and all of those children came into the University.
BR:	They didn't come before that Supreme Court decision.
DR:	I know that Booker. She asked when you were there were there undergraduate students. I don't think so, but I'm not sure. They could have started.
Q2:	Okay.
DR:	I'm not sure.
Q2:	So after you got your degree from the University of Virginia you continued on as principal you - were you -
BR:	No.
Q:	Principal at Jefferson?
BR:	For awhile.
DR:	But you were principal at Jefferson until '65. '64 or '65.
BR:	'64. (Inaudible) George Tremont was making me assistant superentendant.
Q2:	George Tremont. I know that name.
BR:	You know that name?
Q2:	Yes. I know - they're friends of ours. David Toscano and Nancy Tremont and his daughter are good friends of ours.
BR:	Well I worked under George Tremont as the assistant superintendant.
Q2:	Where else did you work as principal? Was it -
BR:	Just at Jefferson.
Q2:	Jefferson. And the -
DR:	And McGuffey also. You were principal at McGuffey also.
BR:	Oh yes. That was before they first integrated.
Q2:	Well Mr. John Gaines was a principal over there too, wasn't he at - at, ah, McGuffey?
BR:	That was later on.
Q2:	Later - after you?
BR:	Yes. And he was a youngster.
Q2:	Hmm?
BR:	He's a youngster as far as my age.
DR:	He's my nephew.
Q2:	That's your nephew?
DR:	Yes.
Q2:	Oh.
DR:	When we were married John was three years old.
Q2:	That's a youngster all right. I know Mr Gaines pretty well. I, I used to be a Chapter 1 teacher and worked under him. Well -
DR:	(Inaudible) -
Q2:	Was McGuffey was - I - McGuffey was a high school also? I don't - what was it?
DR:	Elementary
Q2:	McGuffey was an elementary school, ok.
Q1:	Did, did you go to McGuffey from Jefferson school?
DR:	Hm-hmm.
Q1:	One follows the other.
DR:	Yeah.
Q2:	First you started out teaching. I'm going backwards now. You were a teacher before you became a principal?
BR:	Uh huh.
Q2:	For how - approximately how long did you teach?
BR:	Let me see. I came - I taught - my first year of teaching after graduation from Hampton was 1938 or '39.
Q2:	Ok.
DR:	And he taught - it was Fluvanna County.
Q2:	Ok.
BR:	At Regents (Phonetically) High School.
Q2:	Fluvanna?
DR:	Virginia.
BR:	And then I taught until I - when did I stop?
DR:	It was in '39 and you taught until I believe it was '51. Because there were other people who went past you and went on to Burley. From '39 you started, then you were assistant principal at McGuffy.
Q2:	So you were at Fluvanna for a short time and then you came over -
DR:	One year.
Q2:	For just one year. And then you were at -
BR:	From then on until -
Q2:	Jefferson. And then Jefferson went over to Burley?
BR:	No. I didn't go to to Burley.
Q2:	Some people did.
DR:	You see, the high school - the county and the city went together for a high school, Burley. And when that happened, when the high school left Jefferson. See he taught in the high school. But when they left from Jefferson when they went to Burley. They consolidated everything. He became principal of the elementary school which was then at Jefferson School.
Q2:	Ok. What - what did you teach when you were a teacher?
BR:	Well, in the social studies area I taught history and government and umm (Inaudible) and I taught them sociology.
DR:	And some math too.
Q2:	That's pretty good. Interesting. Now this is a tough question. That Ashlin gave me here. What do you consider to be your greatest accomplishment?
BR:	In my career or -
Q2:	Well, maybe, we could try your career, and then whatever else you might want to mention.
BR:	I'll come back to it.
Q2:	Ok. I would have trouble with that question.
DR:	Why don't you ask me?
Q2:	Ok. What do you think?
DR:	As far as his career.
Q2:	Yea. I think that's good.
DR:	I think his biggest accomplishment was to be a role model for his children and - and public - public children. And also to be a leader and communicator between his kids and the establishment. I don't know that they had too many more like him.
Q2:	A good communicator?
BR:	I just can't see this. When I would sit there. It's the fact that we had three children and they all went to college and finished college.
Q1:	Oh, I'm thinking about other people, not family.
Q2:	Like the community?
DR:	(Inaudible) -
Q2:	Well I think that, that's the wonderful thing about education.
DR:	It's the youngsters that we influence, and also, as I say, something about the others coming along. I think it's nice to talk about him and all of that, but I thought you all wanted to hear things about Ridge Street?
Q2:	Well, you know, part of - That's what other people have asked, but he's an important part of the history of Ridge Street. You both are. I mean when we write this, this would be, you know -
DR:	It's interesting that all of our children were raised - we've been here twenty-five years ago, when my youngest child entered the University, she was in the first class that they let girls into. And we moved here that year. I think it was in 1970. It was 1970. And we moved here in 1970. And - but all my children were raised on Ridge Street.
Q2:	Let's - we can go back to that.
Q1:	We need to know about that. We're moving around, but we're coming back to Ridge.
Q2:	But I think because of your interesting life, that you're a real important part of Ridge Street. But, so - I guess, what, maybe - We could talk about Donna's life a little bit, and then how you got married. Where did you grow up?
DR:	Right here in Charlottesville. My mother was cook on Carr's Hill for President John (Inaudible - president of the University at the time?)- and we lived in the back of the house.
Q2:	Not in a separate house?
DR:	Yeah in the back of the house.
Q2:	There's lots of houses back there.
DR:	Well in the house right behind the president's house.
Q2:	Oh.
DR:	But I didn't grow up there either because my mother started working up there until 19... until I was in fifth or sixth grade. Before that time she was in New York and I lived with a family down on 6th Street North West for three years.
Q2:	You lived with another family while your mother worked.
DR:	And then she came back and
Q2:	That must have been a tough time for you.
DR:	It wasn't tough because they were a very nice family. It was very good. I lived on 6th street with the Bell's children and the Jackson children and Coles - children and we were all friends.
Q2:	The Jackson children are they related to - to (Inaudible) -
DR:	Uh huh. (Inaudible) -
Q2:	I know her.
DR:	(Inaudible) -
Q2:	Oh. No kidding. That was Sixth Street?
DR:	Sixth Street North West. And what they call now was Star Hill to me (Inaudible). I didn't know it back then - I knew it as Sixth Street.
Q2:	Then you moved out of that neighborhood and lived up on Carr's Hill.
DR:	Uh huh. I was always back up to (Inaudible) -
Q2:	Uh huh.
DR:	Hm. Hmm. The people I lived with, the Barbers were just... I know I couldn't have been with nicer people.
Q2:	The Barbers... isn't he related to the Ray Barber who was the Mayor?
DR:	You're thinking of Charles Barber. Well, I don't think - they all were related somewhat, I just don't know. Some sort of cousins, but I didn't know him, because he's another one (Inaudible) - but I know they all had the same name.
Q2:	So were you born in Charlottesville?
DR:	No. I was born in Keene. The southern part of the County.
Q2:	Keene?
DR:	Keene, Virginia.
Q2:	And your parents? Are they from that area too or -
DR:	My mother.
Q2:	What's your mother's name?
DR:	Nichole (?) Wyne - she was married to Oscar Wyne of Earlysville.
Q2:	How do you spell that?
DR:	What?
Q1:	How do you spell her last name?
DR:	W-y-n-e.
Q2:	But they are - look - well how- what brought them to move to Charlottesville? Was his job?
DR:	His job or something.
Q2:	'Cause they were living like in a farming situation?
DR:	He was a fireman (Inaudible) - my mother is at one point taught.
Q2:	Oh. Did she teach out in the Keene area?
DR:	No, she taught at Esmont. At the school at Esmont.
Q2:	Oh. So then you grew up after - you stayed on Carr's Hill until you were a young adult?
DR:	Yes.
Q2:	So, how did you meet each other?
DR:	How did we meet each other. He taught me.
Q2:	Oh. He was your teacher in high school you were in high school?
DR:	Um hmm. We married in 1940. We've been married fifty-four years.
Q2:	My parents were married in 1940.
DR:	Umm hmm.
Q2:	So did you, did you go to college and then come back?
DR:	I went to college for one year.
Q2:	Where did you go?
DR:	Virginia State.
Q2:	I visited there. And then you, did you all move to buy a house on Ridge Street or rent or what did you do?
DR:	We lived with his sister, that was John's mother. John (Inaudible - John's last name) mother for five years. I think it was five years. And then we moved to -
Q2:	Where was that?
DR:	Up on Ninth Street.
Q2:	Ninth Street. Is that where he still is?
DR:	Mm hmm. And then we bought the home up on Ridge Street - 755.
Q2:	That's up in - is that up on higher part of Ridge Street? 755...
BR:	Two houses from (Inaudible) Avenue - on the west side. Do you know Ridge Street real well?
Q2:	Well, I know it better all time since I've been going there. Where is this compared to Ferguson Funeral Home?
BR:	On the other side of the street.
DR:	It's on the other side of the street.
BR:	A large stucco house.
DR:	Tell them about who built the house.
BR:	It was a family of Cooks who built the house. They were carpenters. The people next door to us was the owner of the brick yard - Updyke.
Q2:	Oh. Mr. Wardell Updyke (phonetically)
DR:	No, not Wardell, his grandfather.
Q2:	Not Wardell, someone else?
DR:	Wardell's grandfather. And they were living when we moved here - his grandfather and grandmother.
BR:	See, Wardell was about my age.
Q2:	So his grandparents had a brickyard?
BR:	Yes. He owned the brickyard. You haven't heard of it?
Q2:	No. Have you ever?
BR:	to Q1I think you have.
Q2:	Have you, Ashlin?
A:	In Fifeville?
BR:	It was located...
DR:	Well, she said in Fifeville, where it was located. She said it was Fifeville.
BR:	The house number was - is that what she said?
Q2:	No, I was wondering where it was located. The brick yard?
BR:	The brick yard was at the end of Sixth Street, I guess you would say.
Q1:	Off of Cherry Ave.
Q2:	Hmm.
BR:	They made the brick from the land. The color of the soil...
	End of tape side one
	Side 2 starts with some technical details about the tape.
Q2:	How long did you live in Mr. Gaines mother's house then - was it six years?
DR:	Goodness no. I believe it's four or five. We moved there in forty... oh, boy. '41 and we left in forty... it was five years.
Q2:	Well was pretty typical of the time where - get enough money together to buy a house?
DR:	Oh, I don't know if that was a problem. We lived there and we had the upstairs and we had a bedroom, a living room and a kitchen up there.
Q2:	It was like an apartment?
DR:	An apartment, we had an apartment.
Q2:	That's nice for newly weds.
DR:	That's where I had my first child.
Q2:	So you had your first child when you were at - on Ninth Street?
DR:	Yes. And then the second one, was born in '46.
Q2:	That's your second child?
DR:	Hm. Hmm. That was on Ridge Street.
Q2:	Uh huh. And what -
DR:	I believe it was in the summer... That was in the summer we move there. To Ridge Street. We moved in the summer, and was born in November.
Q1:	Do you mind if I check this?
Q2:	Sure.
	BREAK IN INTERVIEW - loud radio in background.
Q2:	Maybe you can tell us about some of the other neighbors on Ridge Street that you had - that was interesting I think.
BR:	Living or dead?
Q2:	Yes. Living or dead, uh-huh.
BR:	All right. Miss Jessie Carey -
Q2:	Jessie Curry?
BR:	It's Carey. C-a-r-e-y. Lived on the corner of Ridge and Hartman Mill Road, and she was a teacher at Jefferson.
Q2:	Oh.
BR:	For a long long time.
Q2:	Was she a - Was she a teacher when you were a principal or is she -
BR:	Uh huh. And I also went to school through her.
Q2:	She was your teacher?
BR:	In the seventh grade
Q2:	Was she in - was she a -
DR:	When we first went out there, of course, to live on Hartman Mill Road, her mother was living there, Amanda Carey. Mrs. Amanda Carey was living when we first went out there. Her mother.
Q2:	So she's from - she's also from Charlottesville.
DR:	I don't really know
BR:	I don't know - Ms. Beucley(?)
BR:	Ms. Beucley(?), her sister, lived next door.
Q2:	Beucley?
DR:	She had children living all along this street -
Q2:	Her sister
Q1:	Ms. Jessie's sister, or...?
DR:	Ms. Jessie's sister. You probably already have that because I know somebody - Because next door to that was Ms. Barnes(?), but what was her name?... I can't remember before she was married... You know, Josephine's mother's name. Luck! the Lucks lived next door
BR:	Oh, yeah.
DR:	The Lucks.
Q1:	Next door to whom?
DR:	The Beucleys(?)
Q1:	Alright...
DR:	And then coming on up were the Cheringtons. But I'm talking about when we were all living there, I can't talk about before. And then next to them were the
BR:	Nichols
DR:	Nichols. He worked for the Beucleys (?).
BR:	And Mrs. Cherington
DR:	I said, Ms. Cherington.
BR:	You did say that.
DR:	And then, in the house where we first moved on Ridge Street, we... when we first moved on Ridge Street the Hobnots lived in front of us. They lived in a, uh...
BR:	House on 754
DR:	754 across the street. Now these are white people.
Q2:	754? And what was the name? Hobnots?
DR:	The Hobnots.
BR:	He ran a motorcyle place.
Q2:	Do you have any idea how to spell that?
BR:	(Spells Out) H-O-B-N-O-T-S.
DR:	(Inaudible) There was somebody else living there. There was a policeman there.
BR:	McCauley. (Phonetically)
DR:	McCauley, that's right. McCauley lived there.
BR:	His son runs Baskin Robbins now. (An ice cream store)
Q2:	His son runs it? Oh.
DR:	(Inaudible) that little boy (Inaudible) from school. (Inaudible) being outside and (Inaudible) on my side.(Inaudible) where he lived. Behind, looking at the road (Inaudible) - every three, few inches he would go and he'd fall. And I'd just laugh. Not laugh because of him but laugh because it just, he just a little boy and he would fall, and he would fall.
Q2:	And he would keep on trying.
DR:	That's right. (Inaudible) Oh, I'd see him over here (Inaudible) And then I don't know who was on the phone with her but (Inaudible) And of course the Updikes on our side. And then back down here (Inaudible)
Q2:	Oh I know the (Inaudible) side. Well the neighbors have been there forever haven't they?
DR:	Huh? No they haven't been there forever because the Cooks had their house before they built the house that we're living in. Isn't that right Booker? The Cooks lived in the house that Ms. Swift lived in.
BR:	I don't know.
DR:	You said, let me tell you, you said that they moved the house or something and the woman wouldn't stop cooking. Cooking up-
BR:	You're right but I just don't recall.
	(Interruption on tape)
Q2:	But I think, from my impression, so far, is that it was a real community feeling on Ridge Street. Did you have that feeling? Did you enjoy living there and the neighbors and all that?
DR:	I enjoyed it because my children enjoyed the opportunity when we moved here. And it was - I really had a wonderful house for children to grow up with. We had, it was a large house, it was 755 - and it really -
BR:	It was kind of a large yard that the children could play in. And there was -
DR:	They had cherry trees in this yard. Apple trees...it had pear trees. It was just a wonderful place and I didn't realize until my daughter married a (Inaudible) - and we went over to Germany, and I didn't realize until we went over there, why these people did that. And over there the houses, the house was made just like the German houses except German houses didn't have panes in their windows. They were just big panes, it was just panes, and (Inaudible) - and the houses were made so much like it. And they had Hoop (Phonetically) trees all around, and gardens. It was a revelation for us to see (Inaudible) how Mr. Cook -
Q2:	Because Mr. Cook was German?
DR:	He was German.
Q2:	How interesting.
Q1:	And you visited Germany and saw the similarity between what you had lived in -
DR:	Yes you'd see the similarity, and then in the house the rooms were very spacious, and we had like four bedrooms, and each one of my children had their own bedroom. We had walk-in closets and we -
Q2:	That sounds wonderful.
DR:	It was just a wonderful house. But when the children all left it was too large.
Q2:	I know that, two floors?
DR:	Yes, two floors. The Woodfolks live down there now.
Q2:	Oh. Is that a big family or -
DR:	They have a large family (Inaudible) - Their grandchildren are older now - (Inaudible) - We still go by and look at them - (Inaudible) -
Q:	You have a really good memory.
DR:	Although I didn't use it too much because I, didn't used to work. (Inaudible) We were very fortunate. But before we (Inaudible) there was another black owner.(Inaudible) next to me he owned it after the Cooks I think, and he was not allowed, so I hear, to live in it.
Q2:	He bought it and then he couldn't live in it?
DR:	Well I, for some reason he couldn't live in it. And then after that we bought it from a man named Mr. Odum. Remember? (Inaudible) And he had bought it from Mr. Reed.
	(Inaudible)
Q2:	But you - you moved in there in 1946. Is this part of Ridge Street, it just had black people living there?
DR:	From there - from there on down on our side were the black people.
Q2:	On one side?
DR:	Uh-huh.(Inaudible) - on the other side there were black people too but the first house with black people on the other side was (Inaudible) house. And everything up the other way.
Q2:	But from your house - were you the first house that a black family was (Inaudible) -
DR:	I guess so.
Q2:	Huh, that's interesting. And did the - the white families interact at all with the black families?
DR:	(Inaudible)
Q2:	Yeah right next to each other huh?
DR:	The Updikes were very nice and actually turned out all of our (Inaudible).
Q2:	Okay. The Updikes, I know they still live there. I mean they stayed there the whole time of the (Inaudible).
DR:	They ended up on another corner now. But right next to us, they were (Inaudible) grandmother and grandfather, they were old people. And I remember when I went there and she would watch me and walk over and (Inaudible). And they were very nice ladies weren't they Booker?
BR:	Uh-huh. Well part of it was, Mr. Updike, he was very old at the time, had a very beautiful garden and he (Inaudible) lined off his (Inaudible) and of course I did the same thing as long as he lived (Inaudible) because I didn't want him to think that I was working this partition(Inaudible) I had a garden too, and he would talk gardening to me.
Q2:	All right. Now see that's part of using a communicator.
DR:	And when he died, then you just stopped.
Q2:	(Gasp)So you can just do a - you did a garden because he did a garden - you didn't just do a neat garden but you did a garden.
DR:	Yeah he did it neat too. But I tell you [START HERE 14:09] - I tried to (Inaudible) - I think they (Inaudible) -
Q:	In - on your land?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	All right. Not bad. Are you glad to stop gardening?
A:	What?
Q:	Were you happy to stop your gardening?
A:	That couldn't get his shovel. (Inaudible) - granddad, granddad (Inaudible) -
Q:	So that's the - that's interesting for to have that kind of relationship back then.
A:	(Inaudible) - I'm not sure that he was proud of me but (Inaudible) - and now look at the size of me (Inaudible) - Sharon never did bring me the (Inaudible) - and she made me come over to our (Inaudible) - But they were the best of friends at that (Inaudible) - laughing and (Inaudible) - and they'd hold up their (Inaudible) - and their favorite (Inaudible) - and all of that. But they never did come to grasp. But I I have seen (Inaudible) - the mother (Inaudible) - and the mother's married (Inaudible) -
Q:	So but your daughter (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) - there're a lousing cops anyway. (Inaudible) -
Q:	Well interesting.
A:	(Inaudible) - old friends (Inaudible) - he's coming through all of his children. (Inaudible) - comes out of it. And from here on out he would (Inaudible) - comes out of his children comes out (Inaudible) - I think that might have been it (Inaudible) - I - I know we were looking after (Inaudible) -. Married, their going to get married the older kid. (Inaudible) - one child going off to college and the other (Inaudible) - and I mean he
	(Inaudible) -
Q:	(Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) - and I don't mean (Inaudible) -
Q:	when was (Inaudible) -
A:	I been telling you that - that (Inaudible) -
Q:	(Inaudible) - was that (Inaudible) - all that you think I have.
A:	(Inaudible) - thirty years and he (Inaudible) - thirty or forty (Inaudible) - and we were there when they were fifty five. And now we've gone away from that (Inaudible) - you see that happened thirty - thirty-five years old. (Inaudible) - high school thing that's good. (Inaudible) - because her father had planted them (Inaudible) - and then I knew (Inaudible) -
Q:	But you had a side yard (Inaudible) -you said that lot and were to put something else in it?
A:	That's what I said. I did that. And that was our yard.
Q:	(Inaudible) - side yard. So it wasn't -
A:	(Inaudible) - blue flower blooms every year. Every year. Yes. (Inaudible) -
Q:	I have a (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) - every five minutes. (Inaudible) - but - but never knew he went up there (Inaudible) - or nothing (Inaudible) -
Q:	(Inaudible) - Steel Magnolia?
A:	(Inaudible) - definitely like that (Inaudible) -
Q:	Small or (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Pink
A:	Pink I definitely like that (Inaudible) -
Q:	So at least your (Inaudible) - But (Inaudible) -
A:	When have I
Q:	The clip.
A:	the clip has more (Inaudible) -
Q:	Well I think that's really that's not happening, wonderful (Inaudible) - ones correct?
A:	(Inaudible) - this side for (Inaudible) - And all we did (Inaudible) - was three except ours, ours was just a bit (Inaudible) - Three windows on the side and three windows in the back all the other ones (Inaudible) - room in the front there's three small windows. And then down the stairs it had the (Inaudible) - back room (Inaudible) -
Q:	(Inaudible) - that is a wonderful night.
A:	And we live here (Inaudible) -
Q:	Well how does - how does life (Inaudible) - as an adult compared to when you were growing up on Harman's Mill Road?
A:	(Inaudible) - lived on Ridge Street (Inaudible) - Anything that adult no (Inaudible) -
Q:	No putting anymore? And there were more amenities too. I mean you have, you had - had it pretty wild there I know.
A:	Before he left (Inaudible) - he was pretty wild (Inaudible) - I mean he was getting into dirty (Inaudible) -
Q:	Yes.
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	That's what's funny - the relationship with people maybe that - was that - was that from the (Inaudible) - or - feeling of community
A:	(Inaudible) - the way - it seemed like you knew your neighbors pretty well that was pretty (Inaudible) -
Q:	And that's different though then when your young and when you're an adult. When your were adults where did you shop?
A:	Where did we shop?
Q:	yes.
A:	We moved around (Inaudible) - had things to do. (Inaudible) - at (Inaudible) - always shopped at Safeway was here. When we first got married I worked down on -
Q:	Main Street? Yes.
A:	I mean the downtown Main Street where the (Inaudible) - was there on corner of 7th and where (Inaudible) - Grand Piano (Inaudible) - in there.
Q:	I -I shopped at (Inaudible) - than that.
A:	No. (Inaudible) - on Main Street up on
Q:	Oh. No. Your okay.
A:	I wasn't with the A & P. Down on Market Street. (Inaudible) - When you stop and shop at the Stop and Shop I remember (Inaudible) - down there. I think it was the Stop and - I don't know was it the A&P (Inaudible) - it was $8 and $6.
Q:	Did you hear that?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Yes. I know.
A:	He started (Inaudible) - there ain't nothing (Inaudible) -
Q:	Did (Inaudible) - was there a Elizabeth Store on Ridge Street (Inaudible) -
A:	Miss Elizabeth's store, yes. We would go down there, that Mr. Lewis' store down there about (Inaudible) - right at the front. And Mr. Lewis, his store and Mr. Harris (Inaudible) -. Mr. Harris would put the children in the park that's still there. (Inaudible) - Mr. Harris used to do down there and (Inaudible) - but any ways she used to live up on Ridge Street with their mother. And her mother and her sister. And sitting up there (Inaudible) - who's that with -
Q:	Did you just say don't climb up there -
A:	(Inaudible) - And I don't imagine (Inaudible) - then they (Inaudible) - my children were (Inaudible) -. Anyway, But I asked her about those children when I seen (Inaudible) - and then the mother (Inaudible) - used to work for a woman named Lucille it's Lucille, I think that's - that's what my brother used to have to call her. Miss Lucille and Miss Lucille had no carpet in the house that lived in before we moved we moved in. And she (Inaudible) - she worked (Inaudible) -
Q:	now she lived but she worked (Inaudible) -
A:	Oh no. (Inaudible) -
Q:	Oh. (Inaudible) -
A:	And she was school (Inaudible) - (Inaudible) - and I see here coming I have to move (Inaudible) -
Q:	I feel as that (Inaudible) - growing up (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) - lived in the house that he lived in before he moved there. He was a cleaver, but I think he's mad again, I think that (Inaudible) - but he had to face more. (Inaudible) - but anyway I see where he, he's always real sick (Inaudible) - next time you see (Inaudible) - though he's not the (Inaudible) -
Q:	Near by.
A:	No he's not near by. I don't know where he still lives (Inaudible) -
Q:	Oh. Your not - your not.
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	And she lived in your house 755 when it was (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) - people call (Inaudible) - here in the wall (Inaudible) - they should move out to (Inaudible) -
Q:	What was it like when in the fifties when of the first part of the week (Inaudible) - when the whites started moving out and the black families started moving in? Was it - what was it - how did people feel and was it a tense situation?
A:	(Inaudible) - I don't guess it was.
Q:	It was different where you were
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	But it happened pretty quickly didn't it. When the way (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	that was like in the -
A:	But have you all talked (Inaudible) -
Q:	I think she must be. We know that the victims lived.
A:	(Inaudible) - they've got feelings.
Q:	Who did that?
A:	Ed Hickman (phonetically) (Inaudible) -
Q:	That's what the other people that we talked to say that too. I think like it was a real nice community feeling there.
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Yes. He's really active. We've actually lifted through, he's not doing the oral history but he - he's involved in the preservation group.
A:	(Inaudible) - up on preservation though. It's a new group called Reservation Piedmont and we - we do what we can which is (Inaudible) -
	(PERSON BEING INTERVIEWED CHANGED.)
Q:	Well what are you going - what are you thinking about doing about that (Inaudible) - Mrs. - Mrs. Joan.
A:	We are very interested in that (Inaudible) -
Q:	They had some people go there and - that Architect?.
A :	Go in and they look to see if saving lives and I think the - the - I'm not sure 'cause the (Inaudible) - couldn't save it. But I - but I don't know what's going on.
Q:	But what happens to (Inaudible) - here in her hand?
A:	Well I'm sure that, that will work for her. I think she has an insurance policy.
Q:	Funds - funds are you buying funds?
A:	Yes.
Q:	To help people - to improve their health? I can't - I don't -
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Week, yes. This week is not history.
A:	Something you really want to know.
Q:	I just want to know about it. What - what - what happened some things that happened when you were principal? I don't much about it?
A:	Jennifer (phonetically) School was closed. Then they (Inaudible) -
Q:	The governor?
A:	(Inaudible) - and so (Inaudible) - Winston (phonetically) several (Inaudible) - so he and Cyrus (phonetically) wanted us to (Inaudible) - Anywhere if the schools were not excepted by (Inaudible) -
Q:	No kidding
A:	(Inaudible)) - was rotten.
Q:	He - he- he was there at the time?
A:	(Inaudible) - I don't remember. (Inaudible) - get it straight. (Inaudible) - he didn't want to fool around with the (Inaudible) - the people got bitten there differences. Oh they carried on. And the only thing that always amazes me, is that thing on yet.
Q:	Yes.
A:	Is the fact that, we had a very good friend, did you know Miss (Inaudible) - Nichols (phonetically) Miss Smith?
Q:	Sounds awfully familiar to me.
A:	(Inaudible) - feels Miss Nicki was ripped bad. (Inaudible) -
Q:	How's (Inaudible) - stand it?
A:	Maybe they not close and she was (Inaudible) - the thing that be against her. But you know, she had , I - when I went there and I went there Elaine was the secretary and she was in the (Inaudible) - and she was with a (Inaudible) - And you got the definition (Inaudible) - She was crazy about George Cummon and she went along with all integration wonderfully because of George. And I know she was crazy about him up until she died. And I was (Inaudible) -
Q:	What is her position?
A:	She was a Guidance Counselor.
Q:	A guidance counselor.
A:	And then after that she became a psychologist for the city. A Psychologist. She was a wonderful person, wonderful person. I don't whether you been here that long or not Miss Smith. But do you remember the shop down on Main Street the Ethan shop down on Main Street.
Q:	(Indicates, yes.) West Main, a dress shop.
A:	(Indicates, yes.) Well her mother was the owner of that. He never could work in that store (Inaudible) - Oh. She was a wonderful person.
Q:	So, at Jefferson - what happened at Jefferson? Is that when they closed the school?
A:	We needed help (Inaudible) -
Q:	And it -because - and it - is that time that - obviously he's black and there's no white students.
A:	(Inaudible) - students. And they were over nine hundred students at Jefferson. (Inaudible) -
Q:	Was it - did you feel like it was very crowded or was it -
A:	Overly crowded do to - have you ever been in that school?
Q:	Yes. Through it many times.
A:	(Inaudible) - because the oldest (Inaudible) -. And they had to credit the old man they (Inaudible) - down stairs. (Inaudible) - my schooling through (Inaudible) - school was always (Inaudible) - offices (Inaudible) -
Q:	The school board?
A:	(Inaudible) - resign. It's (Inaudible) - clearly they never should have done that. I thought he was here when they (Inaudible) - wasn't he? I think his brother was. When they got it.
Q :	When they integrated?
A:	When they integrated. (Inaudible) - but he took his you know, he's been abused though. 'Cause (Inaudible) - was a different skin you know. He (Inaudible) - just some jealousy (Inaudible) - different school. I thought drugs (Inaudible) - I don't know but (Inaudible) - went after that. (Inaudible) -
Q:	What my impression is that he - he's - he was stuck here during the fact that - but then there is some of these bad feelings that -
A:	He has earned the right - and that leave the opened (Inaudible) - He brought it along.
Q:	Oh. He did?
A:	Yes.
Q:	So he - then it is the same that he chose Charlottesville to retire?
A:	And you know us girls (Inaudible) - sent me an article this morning, in the mail, that article that was in the paper, that's so funny. Somebody called on the telephone not - see I'm the one that (Inaudible) - things been in the paper and then you read it and you go, oh my goodness, you know, whatever (Inaudible) -. And in the paper (Inaudible) - that jury (Inaudible) -. And then, in the same paper (Inaudible) - if it hadn't been for Booker, it would haven't been - they wouldn't have believed the juror (Inaudible) -. He was able to bring it along (Inaudible) - And - and I said oh my Lord this must be a room full of apparitions (Inaudible) -
Q:	It be nice if we got together. And he must -
A:	He (Inaudible) -
Q:	He's a lot of fun (Inaudible) -
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Well I know him because he - his - his son-in-law now you know, is the mayor?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	(Inaudible) - but we - we do things together and the - the parents come along sometimes.
A:	Is that so. This girl says this from out of the paper today. The girl she was sworn to (Inaudible) -. And she didn't know (Inaudible) - she (Inaudible) - Then it says they failed to (Inaudible) - to try (Inaudible) -.
Q:	About him today?
A:	(Inaudible) - Oh and then it said we particularly commend the Superintendent George (Inaudible) - for his work before and during integration in the area of which (Inaudible) - principal. He was interested in integration, he created situation at Jefferson that would lead to others in the trials he was in. He wanted to go all for integration. His idea was to bring Jefferson up to date with more (Inaudible) - . Now, it says Tom Maupin, who still lives in Charlottesville, said that when he came to the school system in 1960, he made sure Jefferson received the same supplies as other schools. When I came in it was a very well run school he said, added they knew their kids as they knew their parents and that means a lot. (Inaudible) - employees of the black elementary school in 1964 (Inaudible) -. Tom Maupin said - this is what he said some people do not except anything he said and some said my kids are simple black kids in the same class as, no way in hell that my kids would be taught by a black person. Tom Maupin said one of the key to the success to of integration is to have such respect in both the black, pardon me, the black community said he was able to (Inaudible) - . If it hadn't been for Tom Maupin, you would have been in trouble, she said. You never had any riots never any real fights children felt uncomfortable. But it is nothing like the other children. They both undercover each other when they - when they got together and they haven't seen each other for years. I've seen George - I've seen (Inaudible) - . Last time I saw him I believe we were both (Inaudible) - treat us like old folks. Think if you been young together and laughing (Inaudible) - . I have been in the hospital the time (Inaudible) -
Q:	That's wonderful, I'm glad you read it.
A:	Yes. I didn't believe that -
Q:	Oh that's - that's significant. Is that all right with me?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	I think that's about all
A:	I think about -
Q:	I think that's very important.
A:	I (Inaudible) - a lot of things (Inaudible) -
Q:	And you told us to go as well?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	So -
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Mr. Reaves he would - he - does this job was to pick people and (Inaudible) - in the new -
A:	Well, you see, he had, I don't know how many people he had at the time but they had to go - they weren't getting rid of him, so they had to go to (Inaudible) - New Briar (Inaudible) - . They had to go through all the different elementary schools. So he had just (Inaudible) - .
Q:	And this was when after Jefferson School was closed?
A:	And this Jefferson School (Inaudible) - at the same time (Inaudible) - were not completed you had one (Inaudible) - in the morning. And one step in the evening. (Inaudible) - at that time he was at McGuffey you see. And when he - when he (Inaudible) - the boys would be with him and then she would go over to Buford in the afternoon. Buford was in the afternoon (Inaudible) - I'm sure. And at that time they put me, I went into work at Jefferson part time clerical (Inaudible) -. And George Tom Maupin sent me to Lane and I was the first one (Inaudible) - guidance office of Miss Jefferson. And that was my first full time job.
Q:	Oh.
A:	And that's when I was stop with the music (Inaudible) - Mrs Garret (Inaudible) -
Q:	When she (Inaudible) -
A:	No. Mr. Barnes (Inaudible) - he was the driver (Inaudible) - and they were all my very, very good friends and I miss them terribly. (Inaudible) - but I think (Inaudible) -
Q:	So when you went their you were - were - you were one of the third black secretaries in - of the building?
A:	(Inaudible) - I was - I was the first black person to work to work there except for a janitorial. (Inaudible) -
Q:	so, for many years that you worked as secretary?
A:	(Inaudible) - And then they got another secretary and I became the records clerk (Inaudible) -
Q:	When did she stop working do you remember?
A:	I stopped working in 1980 (Inaudible) - on the side of 79 (Inaudible) -
Q:	So you had some fun I bet, after retirement?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	So the people you remember working with at - Lane when you were a guidance counselor (Inaudible) -
A:	I wasn't a - I wasn't a guidance counselor.
Q:	You were not?
A:	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Now that's secretary for - all right.
A:	(Indicates, yes.)
Q:	One of the reasons that all this in the past gone right is because people are human and we're going to make mistakes.
A:	No. We're not. No I work with old folks - many people are old. (Inaudible) - secretaries are (Inaudible) - in our office
	(Inaudible) -
Q:	Where did - Mr. Reaves, where did - after you moved teachers into the various schools from Jefferson, where did you go?
A:	McGuffey
Q:	So then you went to McGuffey?
	(TAPE ENDED)
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of Booker and Donna Reaves by Mr. Ashlin Smith and Ms. Jean Hiatt of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on September 8, 1994. (Oral History)