Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of Mary Starks on May 24, 2002, by Sarah Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)
Biographical Information Mary Starks was born the first of ten children on January 26, 1922, and reared in the Chestnut Grove neighborhood of Esmont. She tells of how her paternal great grandparents, along with other freed slaves from Campbell County, were given land settlements all along the James River, and how her great grandmother's brother was sold away from her in Richmond. Her paternal grandmother, a midwife who used her horse and buggy to travel to clients, lived with the family, and Starks recalls how her grandmother told her "the facts of life." Starks's father was away from home most of the time, working the railroad in Kentucky, and her mother worked two days a week in nearby Howardsville doing domestic work for a white family. Mary Starks babysat her siblings and cared for the home, and throughout her life tended to ill relatives. She married the man she fell in love with at the early age of fifteen, in order to get away from the strict surveillance of her father. Starks recounts daily chores, the teachers at her school in Chestnut Grove, trips to Scottsville, various health care resources, and other aspects to her life growing up in the Esmont area. She discusses at length her perceptions of racial segregation and her many positive social relationships with white people from her youth into the present day. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. Brackets have been used to indicate additions made to the text upon review by the interviewee. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Ms. Lawrence:	This is Sarah Lawrence. It's May 24, 2002 and I am at the home of Mrs. Vercal Starks, the daughter-in-law of Mrs. Mary Starks who I'm interviewing today.
Mrs. Starks:	My son's name is Eric L. Starks.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, and her son's name is Eric. Could you spell that?
Mrs. Starks:	Eric, E.R.I.C. That's the way we spell it. Some people try to spell it different. E.R.I.C.
Ms. Lawrence:	E.R.I.C. Oh okay, Eric. All right. Can you state for the record what your full name is please?
Mrs. Starks:	My full name? I am the daughter of Alexander Gray and Aurelia Emerson Gray.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And your name today?
Mrs. Starks:	Is Mary Louise [Virginia] Starks, Gray Starks. I always use the "G". Mary G. Starks.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Great. When and where were you born?
Mrs. Starks:	Albemarle County. January 26, 1922.
Ms. Lawrence:	1922. And where in Albemarle County?
Mrs. Starks:	Esmont, like I said.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Do you remember your grandparents' names?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, my grandmother on my father's side was Amanda Scrubbs Gray. And her husband was Ned Gray. But that's been a long time and I don't remember nothing about him.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And my mother's parents was Sandy Anderson and his wife was named Mary Anderson, Mary Wells Anderson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Do you remember where they were born? Were you ever told?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I don't know where my mother's mother was born. And my grandfather neither.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	But my [grand]mother's mother was named Patsy. Patsy Brown Wells.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And what about your father's parents?
Mrs. Starks:	My father's parents was -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember where they were born?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I don't remember where they were born. But they must have been born. They was - well, let me see. It was in Albemarle County but they came down from Campbell County, the slaves.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And your father was born in this county?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, mm-hm, in Albemarle County.
Ms. Lawrence:	Esmont?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	And your mom?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, my mother too.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Um, were they, so they were raised in Esmont and you grew up in Esmont as well?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I lived in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	But my grandmother, Amanda Scrubbs Gray, and Ned Gray, they was slaves.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you ever hear stories about them being in slavery? Did they talk to you about that?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes. Yes, my grandma told me they all came down from Campbell County and they settled around like down from Lynchburg all the way down the James River.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. After slavery, or, that's where they were slaves?
Mrs. Starks:	We were sold down here. [----of the city?] But she didn't ever see her brother no more. She was sold and some of the towns that she in, in Albemarle County, and her brother was sent on down towards Richmond. She has a brother named Garrett Scrubbs.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. What about her parents?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, her mother was named Annie Scrubbs but I don't know no more than that.
Ms. Lawrence:	But was she sold away from them as well?
Mrs. Starks:	I don't know whether she was still living or - I imagine she was still living at that time, with the children.
Ms. Lawrence:	What else did they tell their grandchildren, tell you about slavery?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, -
	(tape stopped momentarily because Mrs. Vercal Starks arrived home)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay we're back. My question was what else did your grandparents tell you, if anything, and all the grandchildren, about slavery?
Mrs. Starks:	Well see by me being the oldest - we lived with our grandmother, our grandmother lived with my mother. And my father, he worked, after he came out of the service, he went back on the railroad. He worked there. For forty-four years.
Ms. Lawrence:	So was he gone a lot?
Mrs. Starks:	He had to go a lot in them days because it was hard to make money to take care of your children.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right.
Mrs. Starks:	But we stayed home, with my grandmother -
Ms. Lawrence:	Your grandmother on your mother's side?
Mrs. Starks:	No, on daddy's side.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay. All right.
Mrs. Starks:	And that's the one, I told you, was named Amanda Scrubbs Gray. But I never seen her husband.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh.
Mrs. Starks:	But she was telling us how hard they had to work and what they had to do. How they used to have to take care of the big farms, whatever they were on. And see when they came down from Lynchburg, each slave mostly around had a settlement, from all the way down the river. Whoever was down there. Let me see, I was just there. You know, who - there were slaves on the - whoever the name, the slaves they were on, I mean their Misters (Mistresses?), my grandma I think was, they were on the -
Ms. Lawrence:	On the plantation owner?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh, was Reid and Hancocks I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And so they mostly farmed?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm, yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did the women too?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah the women had to farm too. And then, around here, in this settlement, a lot of older people - I don't know who they were - my grandma told me I just don't remember - all the misters and them had all gave them all a piece of land something.
Ms. Lawrence:	When they were freed?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	How much land, do you remember? Just -
Mrs. Starks:	No, I don't know. Some had more than others did.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, hm.
Mrs. Starks:	All through these woods you can't see right, little huts and things and the really great big rocks for the flue and stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	For the flue?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, for you know, the chimney.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, oh so they're uh, if you walk through the woods you can still come across some of that?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow, that's so interesting.
Mrs. Starks:	And then see, they come, like I told you, from Lynchburg, and went all the way down to Richmond somewhere she said. That's where our brother was sold at. My grandma's.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Have you ever tried to locate his relatives?
Mrs. Starks:	No no. That's too much for me honey. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	And then, on my momma's side, her grandmother was a mistress (inaudible). And I can't think of what her -
Ms. Lawrence:	A white mistress? (See note at end of interview)
Mrs. Starks:	She was mistress of their home but she was working at the plantation.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	I can't think, I can't think of what her, what the people's name was where she was working for.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well maybe you'll come, come up with it and then we can get back to that.
Mrs. Starks:	Okay. I can't come up with it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, that's okay.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, she was the maid, she was the nurse, she was the seamstress.
Ms. Lawrence:	This is your grandmother's -
Mrs. Starks:	On my mother's side.
Ms. Lawrence:	Your grandmother herself, okay.
Mrs. Starks:	My great-grandma.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, that's what I was getting at. Your great-grandmother was all these things. Seamstress, nurse, and, wow.
Mrs. Starks:	And her name I told you was Patsy Brown Wells.
Ms. Lawrence:	You have a great memory.
Mrs. Starks:	Ain't much of it gone now.
Ms. Lawrence:	This is great! (Chuckle)
Mrs. Starks:	I'm telling you.
Ms. Lawrence:	What's that?
Mrs. Starks:	There's not much of my memory is gone. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Well that's wonderful. That's why we're getting it all here today. Okay. I'm going to get to your life as a little girl in Esmont. You talked about your grandmother living with you. So, well why don't we start with how many brothers and sisters you had. And their names.
Mrs. Starks:	My oldest brother's name was Alexander. My second brother was Howard V. My third brother was Albert G. And my two younger brothers, Willie and Donald.
Ms. Lawrence:	The third brother was Albert?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Albert, okay. Um, no sisters?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I'm going to tell you now. I was the oldest girl for seven years.
Ms. Lawrence:	How nice.
Mrs. Starks:	And then it was my sister, her name was Elois. [emphasis on "e"]
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, E.L.O.I.S.
Mrs. Starks:	You see that's something that some people don't pronounce it like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Elois, I know, I always think of Eloise. Okay, Elois.
Mrs. Starks:	And she had a twin, and his name was James, but he passed.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. At birth?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And then, the next two girls, named Marva -
Ms. Lawrence:	Marble?
Mrs. Starks:	The oldest girl was named Thelma, and then Marva.
Ms. Lawrence:	Could you spell that second one?
Mrs. Starks:	Thelma?
Ms. Lawrence:	No, Mar, Marma.
Mrs. Starks:	Marva? M.A.R.V.A.
Ms. Lawrence:	V.A.? Oh Marva, okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And then, she was the last child born.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, where did you fit in? Were there three older brothers?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I'm the oldest.
Ms. Lawrence:	You're the oldest of them all?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Wow. All right.
Mrs. Starks:	And then the next boy next to me was named Alexander. Howard, Albert, and then next to Albert was a girl named Elois. And then the brother next to her was named Willie. And then next, the baby boy, was Donald. And the next girl was -
Ms. Lawrence:	Thelma.
Mrs. Starks:	Thelma. And the other was named Marva. And the twin to Elois was named James.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, got it. So, what was the age difference between you and Marva?
Mrs. Starks:	Marva?
Ms. Lawrence:	How old was she, were you when she was born?
Mrs. Starks:	How old I were? I got married when I was fifteen years old.
Ms. Lawrence:	So...were you fifteen when she was born, when Marva was born?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I'm going to tell you now. She born in, in '41.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So, 19. That's quite a span. So your mom was pretty busy with raising the children?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, but she worked two days.
Ms. Lawrence:	Doing what?
Mrs. Starks:	She worked like I told you, on plant- that was the plantation, didn't call it plantation -
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mrs. Starks:	She went to work for the Hancocks two days a week, up in Howardsville.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did she do for them?
Mrs. Starks:	Just general housecleaning, the regular housework around with the children.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Where did they live?
Mrs. Starks:	Howardsville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Howardsville, okay. And your grandmother on those days watched over the children?
Mrs. Starks:	No, granny didn't watch us. Grandma was a midwife.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, okay.
Mrs. Starks:	She come in for one family to a whole 'nother.
Ms. Lawrence:	So she was even doing midwifery when she was, when you were children?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	And that kept her busy? Most of the days?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes it kept her busy. Because see after she go and deliver the baby she would go and stay with whomever she was waiting on.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. For how long? After the baby was born?
Mrs. Starks:	A month or two I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	What's that?
Mrs. Starks:	A month or two.
Ms. Lawrence:	A month or two?! As the baby, after the baby was born?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	To help the family adjust?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Learn how to take care of the baby.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow, and how, do you know what the circumference was, like how far, what was the farthest place she went?
Mrs. Starks:	I don't know about the farthest place, but I know that this -
Ms. Lawrence:	Like fifteen miles away, or -
Mrs. Starks:	Maybe that was to there some time too, I imagine. She had a horse and a buggy. She had her horse. And she had her buggy.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And she would travel?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. Maybe you remember, the buggies with the top on them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	And the little suitcase or something behind it (Chuckle) that you could put things in.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, yeah. I think of it as a trunk or something.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh interesting. Did she ever take you along?
Mrs. Starks:	No, she only took me, I rode with her to church and when she would go on a trip or something.
Ms. Lawrence:	You mean in the horse and buggy, that's when you got the chance, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	What kinds of trips would she take?
Mrs. Starks:	Like we would like go to church and we'd, sometimes we would take me to Richmond. I mostly rode to Richmond all the time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. Just you?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, just me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Really? What would you do in Richmond?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh well, she always went to see her cousin, and I would go with her, and meet other children down there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh. That's a long ways! How long did that take you in the horse and buggy?
Mrs. Starks:	No it wasn't a horse and buggy. On a train.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, oh okay on a train.
Mrs. Starks:	See my daddy worked on railroads. He worked there forty-four years.
Ms. Lawrence:	So did you get special treatment because he worked on the railroad?
Mrs. Starks:	Well I imagine it was special then, when you got a free pass that you ride! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah! It's special now too! I'd like a free trip to Richmond.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, it was special then. She passed in '38.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. So, what was your relationship like with your grandmother?
Mrs. Starks:	Close. My grandma told me the facts of life.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she really?
Mrs. Starks:	There was nothing she didn't miss with me, everything she told me that came true.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow! Did your mom know that she did that?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, momma used to tell her, 'don't tell me everything' (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Huh. Do you think she told the other kids?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I (Inaudible) I had another first cousin. She'd tell her some things.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. A girl?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And the boys, what did she tell the boys?
Mrs. Starks:	Momma used to tell the boys everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay, okay, that's interesting. And your father?
Mrs. Starks:	My father? See daddy wasn't home. At that time, when he worked away, he worked in Kentucky.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. For how long?
Mrs. Starks:	For how long? From the time he come out of the service, and he was in the service, he came out in 1918 when the world war was over, over there. You know, the first one.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm, yeah, yeah. So he served there, in the war, and then after that he went into the railroads?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah he was already in it when he went in service.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, he must have come home occasionally.
Mrs. Starks:	He came and then momma and him got married. And it was two years before I was born.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Um, after you were born and he was married and he was still working on the railroad in Kentucky -
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, mm-hm, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Then, when would he come home to visit you?
Mrs. Starks:	He'd come home maybe once a month. Most of the time he couldn't hardly come home but once a month at that time. They won't give him but, it was a little amount of money.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	So I believe it was something like five dollars or something, you know, every half or something.
Ms. Lawrence:	A month?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, he sent momma money every month to take care of us. Because see momma raised a hog, she raised hogs, and she had a cow, she got her working herself.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was that?
Mrs. Starks:	I said by her working too.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Two days a week or so.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you start to work before you got married?
Mrs. Starks:	No I never worked. I babysat -
Ms. Lawrence:	The children?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	That was work.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	And since I was six years old I learned how to cook. I learned how to clean, I used to sew.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Starks:	I don't do none of that now.
Ms. Lawrence:	You do none of that now?
Mrs. Starks:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well -
Mrs. Starks:	I took care of my family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mrs. Starks:	My five children.
Ms. Lawrence:	Time to relax.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, and then I took care of the sick in the family. Like my mother, and father, sister-in-law.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, did you all share chores, like, just because you were the oldest, didn't you -
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. I, the second brother and I had to do most of the chores because the brother next to me, he was sickly, very sickly.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	We had to get up and go milk the cow, get the horses up for our uncle, because he was a farmer.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did he live next door?
Mrs. Starks:	It was (Inaudible) from here. And we would help him. And we would help the lady where we kept the horse and cows at, help her, Mrs. Laura Davis -
Ms. Lawrence:	You kept your horses and cows at her farm?
Mrs. Starks:	We would - Yes, we and my uncle kept them all up there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh the uncle, okay, that was your uncle's, right. So you helped him out too?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah we helped him out.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was he single or did he have a family?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, he had a family.
Ms. Lawrence:	And did his children help him too?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes his children helped him. He didn't have so many.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, what other chores did you do, around the house? Or could you describe them a little bit, because that's something, we don't know exactly what the details of what was involved.
Mrs. Starks:	I cleaned. I cooked. I washed and ironed.
Ms. Lawrence:	And ironed.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	For the whole family?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Every day?
Mrs. Starks:	No. Once or twice a week. My eyes are so bad. (Rubs her eyes)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh I'm sorry. Allergies?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I had to wipe my [eye]glasses on account of sugar.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. Are you feeling okay?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Um, did you go to school around here?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, I go to school around here. I went to, we had a little one-room school on (Route) 723, up the hill above our church route, right off 723.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	Big church on 723. That's, we have a new church now that we built, but twenty years ago our church was just, was, we in a wooden church -
Ms. Lawrence:	So, did the New Green Mountain Church replace that?
Mrs. Starks:	No, no.
Ms. Lawrence:	This is a different one?
Mrs. Starks:	You keep, when you leave here you make a left lane turn, you go all the way straight around 723 and the big church down there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Was the school you went to the Esmont School?
Mrs. Starks:	No I didn't go to Esmont School.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	We went to a school first (inaudible), right above the church (phone rings), as you pass the church on 723.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did it have a name?
Mrs. Starks:	It had nothing but that Chestnut Grove School.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. There we go.
Mrs. Starks:	That's the one, we had to walk there.
Ms. Lawrence:	How far was that, a walk?
Mrs. Starks:	From here? And you go, we went through the woods to make it short. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Was there a path or did you bushwhack?
Mrs. Starks:	No they had a path. But we, I didn't go, one year I missed from going to school the first year. Actually when I must have been seven or eight, because I didn't have nobody to go with me. I had to wait until my brother, Albert, was old enough to go.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And then all the children went to that same school?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah all. Yes all of them. All the boys.
Ms. Lawrence:	And you were in school through the eighth grade you said.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm, yeah, I repeated that two years straight.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember any teachers who stand out?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, in the first and the third it was Ms. McTillah from Charlottesville.
Ms. Lawrence:	And what was interesting about her? Why do you remember her?
Mrs. Starks:	Because it was summer school. See sometimes they wasn't able to have winter school, you know. Because winter, wasn't warm in the room and it had to be heated by wood. And then the next one, her name was Bertha Anderson. Let me see now. And the next one were Ruth Wenaple.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did they teach you? Do you remember?
Mrs. Starks:	Well let's see. In the first grade, Ms. McTillah was there during that summer, the first grade. It was, what was it, the primer was named, (Chuckle) I can't think of the primer name. It was "World-" I don't know what the primer name was now, I can't think.
Ms. Lawrence:	I would be surprised if you remembered. I don't remember (Chuckle). I don't remember, you know, my high school textbooks so.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. No, I don't remember what we had. "Charles River Primer" or something like that. It could just tell you what -
Ms. Lawrence:	Well it was, it was just, did you have special subjects or, later on -
Mrs. Starks:	No no, we had little things that we would work on sometime. And Miss Swenson, and then there was Ms. Mitchell, she was from West Virginia. And then the next teacher we had for the grades that was going on up there was Mrs. Mary Scott from Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	I haven't heard of her yet.
Mrs. Starks:	Huh?
Ms. Lawrence:	I haven't heard of her from other people yet, but most -
Mrs. Starks:	You will.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Why do you say that?
Mrs. Starks:	Because she was a very intelligent lady educator.
Ms. Lawrence:	So-
Mrs. Starks:	We would went to her, maybe a couple years. I think, maybe it was a couple years. I don't know. And then the county built a school right by our church. The new church that I was telling you about? We got a new church? Well the school is a white building, and that was the school where we moved to. And then from that, from Mrs. Scott, we went to Miss Sellars.
Ms. Lawrence:	Still at that school?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah at the new school. But that was one room too.
Ms. Lawrence:	What made Mrs. Scott different? You said she was very intelligent but, um -
Mrs. Starks:	She was religious.
Ms. Lawrence:	- how did she kind of, demonstrate that?
Mrs. Starks:	Everything. She was into everything. She was like a mother, mother-like. And she was always, you know, interested in you and the facts of life.
Ms. Lawrence:	What do you mean the facts of life?
Mrs. Starks:	Tell you how to live, how to treat people, and we had Bible verses every morning. You had to remember them. Uh-huh, we were, she was very interesting.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. How did, or did, your teachers discipline the classroom?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, at that time it was, they disciplined real good because children minded. And we did, we did real good. They'd tell us what to do and we did it. Sometimes you even had to get up and go get a little brush to start the wood, a fire up in the wintertime.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. During school?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, uh-huh. And then, sometimes you would have to bring something to make soup out of so it wasn't cold, and make, have a hot, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. So you brought your, your food.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, mm-hm. (Inaudible) And sometime you used to have, when it was real cold you'd make soup and stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Why were there some winters where they couldn't make a fire for the school?
Mrs. Starks:	Well we always, someone always got some wood in the morning.
Ms. Lawrence:	So that winter you talked about there not being any school, there was no wood? Because no one could bring wood?
Mrs. Starks:	No, we never was - we always had school, but it was always closed in May, so many months.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So summer school was just an extra for you.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, yeah. That was extra.
Ms. Lawrence:	It was just extra. Okay. Um, who tended to do, if any, disciplining in your family.
Mrs. Starks:	Who done it?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	My momma.
Ms. Lawrence:	Your mom, okay.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Not your grandma.
Mrs. Starks:	With the switch.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah okay.
Mrs. Starks:	No, granny wore great long skirts in those days and we'd run up under and get up under those skirts and get out of the way. And granny would be cutting, and momma would be cutting the skirt, and she weren't never cutting us! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mrs. Starks:	And she'd be hollering, telling granny to pull them, pull them out under there, don't you let them go up under your skirt. I'm going to whip them. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) That's great.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, see, we had to carry water too and all that stuff. Like I told you, milked cows, get up the horses -
Ms. Lawrence:	So why would she take a switch to you?
Mrs. Starks:	If you did something mischievous. Didn't take much for them to whip you then.
Ms. Lawrence:	Like what?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, if you didn't get all your wood in you got it. If you didn't get your spring, waste half of your water you had to go back and get another bucketful.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. How far was the spring?
Mrs. Starks:	Oo! Long ways. And then in the summertime if you went and got it, little bees be around in the bucket you ain't never see none of them. It mean it was warm. You had to go back and get another bucket, well then you just walk fast to get back home with it. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	What, what were you looking for?
Mrs. Starks:	Little tiny beads, look like little beads on the side of the bucket, water done got warm you (Inaudible) (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! Oh.
Mrs. Starks:	Let's see. Yes it was hard in them days. We always had a garden though, and a horse. I'd say we were blessed. Momma canned, granny canned. My daddy working away. He took care of us. Thank God for that. Wherever she worked at, she always, when she come home, Mrs. Hancock and Ms. Daisy all of them would give us so much food or something and she'd come home for us too.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. Was that a regular thing?
Mrs. Starks:	For her to work?
Ms. Lawrence:	No, for her to bring some food back from the places -
Mrs. Starks:	No, mostly when she worked for them they always, you know, bring something.
Ms. Lawrence:	A little something, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	And she liked to cook. And Daisy made light bread practically every day.
Ms. Lawrence:	Made what?
Mrs. Starks:	Light bread.
Ms. Lawrence:	Light bread. Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, rolls and rolled oat bread.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did you all do during holidays?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, we always had, sometimes we had some plays, like at church or school. And they were very good. My momma was a religious woman. And daddy was, daddy was the deacon.
Ms. Lawrence:	The what?
Mrs. Starks:	He was the deacon of the church.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay.
Mrs. Starks:	My grandmother was a religious lady too.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	We was always taught to treat everybody right. Know one another. And respect your elders. Know how to talk to people. I guess that's the reason the Lord is keeping me down because I always respect my elders and I try to be kind and good to people because if I say something to hurt your feelings, it'll hurt me worse than it hurts you.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm, mm.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Hm.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	What about in your home during the holidays. Did you do any kind of celebration at Christmas or anything?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh yeah we always had a nice Christmas, thank God for that.
Ms. Lawrence:	What made it nice?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, we all was together. And sometimes my mother used to take us to visit her relatives.
Ms. Lawrence:	Around the area?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes around the area. Like, she had some relatives in Scottsville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Would you stay -
Mrs. Starks:	Or Warren. And she had her wagon and her horse and she would put straw in the wagon and she would take us with her.
Ms. Lawrence:	Bundled up and warm.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. Yeah, I had a good mother. She was 56 when she passed.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. What did she die of?
Mrs. Starks:	Cancer. I was married when she passed. And I kept her. I kept my daddy too. I did for my brothers. Tried to do for all of them.
Ms. Lawrence:	How did your parents divide up the decision-making responsibilities, or just general home stuff or thinking about you children, if you're going to go to the school in the summer or not, how did they work as a couple?
Mrs. Starks:	Well. They got along fine with that. My momma, see momma was home all the time. Like I told you, daddy only came home once or twice a month.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	And grandma was there. Grandma sewed, momma sewed, momma made our clothes.
Ms. Lawrence:	So when your father came home to visit, did they have discussions about you children?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh yes. If you did anything he whipped you. Any old thing you did wrong he won't let. He got, we got whipped.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. You've talked about your relationship with your grandmother. How about your relationship with your mother and your father?
Mrs. Starks:	Very close. I was very close to both of them. My daddy took me to Ohio with him every summer most.
Ms. Lawrence:	For what?
Mrs. Starks:	Just to visit while he was there working.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. What did you do?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh well, I met other children.
Ms. Lawrence:	The relatives?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Who, what relatives were those?
Mrs. Starks:	I have (Inaudible) that. And I got a cousin like that now. An aunt in Ohio.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. Were you the only one allowed to go?
Mrs. Starks:	No, he took all of us. He gave each one a trip.
Ms. Lawrence:	Really? At different times?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh, well see they had passes that were free.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, that's so nice. Fun. Huh.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. Only the two younger girls - the oldest one didn't take the pass - was born after he retired. Because he didn't retire, he was sickly. And at that time when they worked on the railroad, they had several of what you call motorcars, working from one end of rails to another, to be fixed you know. And they kept, if like wind was blowing in wintertime and the cold stuff, you still had to work.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	So he was full of rheumatism and things, and then he was in service - it was cold over there - and he said when you did have to have a chance to take a shower, sometimes when he got to the water to take a shower the water was so cold that it was colder than normal.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. Did he tell you about his war experiences?
Mrs. Starks:	Where, at the railroad?
Ms. Lawrence:	No, in the war.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, the only thing he said, he was, he got shot in the knee.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. But he wouldn't tell stories?
Mrs. Starks:	No, mm-hm. No. I got a son now, he wouldn't tell you nothing. Don't talk about it, but only the place he got shot. And when he passed he had poor circulation, had heart attacks and things, and they take his leg off.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. Your father?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. He got shot right there. (points to leg)
Ms. Lawrence:	And that's when he got sent back?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did he tell you when he came to visit about his life on the railroad and about his co-workers, or just stories?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh yes, finally he got a raise and he didn't have to go out on the motorcars, up and down the track and fix the track. He got a job at the station, keeping it clean.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. Which station?
Mrs. Starks:	That was in Russel, Kentucky. He lived over in Ohio and he worked in Russel, Kentucky.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	He lived there for forty years, forty-four years. My uncle lived there for forty-eight, before he came home. Then my cousins still live out there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you tell me the name of the church that you were part of?
Mrs. Starks:	Chestnut Grove Baptist Church, on Route 723.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And can you kind of just give me a sense of what you did with respect to the church growing up. Like you probably went to service -
Mrs. Starks:	I went to Sunday School. You went to church everyday. Like I told you my mother was a spiritual, religious lady, and I'm proud of it. We went to Sunday School, we had programs in church, at that time -
Ms. Lawrence:	Every Sunday?
Mrs. Starks:	Hm?
Ms. Lawrence:	Every Sunday?
Mrs. Starks:	No, we had first and second Sunday at that time but now we have service every Sunday.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And we, I was on, after I was grown my children went to church, my five children. And they all belonged to our church over here, Chestnut Grove Baptist Church. The three boys and the two girls. And I was president of the choir for a while. And my daughter-in-law and I, we worked in church together. Barbara Starks. After my father got sick and my sister-in-law was at the same time, I couldn't do it as good. But I still went to church when I could.
Ms. Lawrence:	Were you involved in the plays at church as well?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes we was involved with plays, and we went different places to sing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Around like the general area?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, just the general area. Sometimes away. And they still do.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you go to revivals?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, revivals, we had revival homecoming, third Sunday in August.
Ms. Lawrence:	Third Sunday in August?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Were you a member of or belong to any clubs when you were young?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, we still, we have, no, not - yes, because I was married since I was fifteen years old. We have Ladies Club, Pastor's Aid -
Ms. Lawrence:	Pastor's Aid, is that what you said?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm, missionary and all that, at church now.
Ms. Lawrence:	And you started that when?
Mrs. Starks:	And I was a choir member, president of the choir. We organized three or four choirs with my daughter-in-law Barbara and I.
Ms. Lawrence:	Whoa. Three or four? From the same church?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, at the same church. And now they have 1, 2, 3 - (counting) Wait a minute let me ask Vicky. Vicky?! Vick?! (calls to other room)
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	Uh-huh (calls back from other room)
Mrs. Starks:	How many choirs do you have at church now, we have at church?
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	Um, Men's Chorus, Anointed Voices, Combined Choir, a Youth Choir, and Senior Choir, five choirs.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was the second one, Northern Voices?
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	Anointed Voices.
Ms. Lawrence:	Anointed Voices. Is that the special -
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	They sing about a contemporary, you know, different. And on the Combined we kind of mix it. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	To give everybody a little bit of what they want. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Try to please everybody!
Mrs. Vercal Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, I getchya. Thank you.
Mrs. Starks:	And they go a lot of places to sing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Um. So you got married when you were fifteen. Can you tell me how you met your husband? Or, how your dating, how that, how that happened basically.
Mrs. Starks:	Oh, about a year. He didn't live here. His home was here. Right down that road. But he was away working. He lived in New Jersey, Elizabeth, New Jersey. And he came home.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. How old was he?
Mrs. Starks:	How old was he?
Ms. Lawrence:	Was, you were fifteen and how old was he when you got married?
Mrs. Starks:	Twenty-seven and a half.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. An older man?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh, but very sweet.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh. So how did he court you?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, just in the neighborhood. My mother used to live with them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, she wasn't no, you know, wasn't no kin to them, but my mother's mother died when she was young.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mrs. Starks:	And this was, his mother was named Mrs. Cliffie Starks. She was a friend of my mother's mother.
Ms. Lawrence:	Her name was Cliffie?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, my husband's mother was named Cliffie.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And that's where my mother used to stay, with them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. So they were probably good friends?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, very good.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. And she just took you over one day and he happened to be back from New Jersey and he said -
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, mm-hm. But he was, he was nice, when I was going to school, you know all girls have little school boyfriends, and he used to tell me all the time I was his girl. And he used to tell the other little boys that that's my girl, that you can't have her.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mrs. Starks:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mrs. Starks:	And he meant it. (Chuckle) But, you know, at that time, you'd, he was real nice, he was just kind and good to me. Couldn't have been a better husband.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you were happy with that?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah I was happy with that. Because you know why the reason I thought I was so happy?
Ms. Lawrence:	Why?
Mrs. Starks:	Because my daddy, he, I was the only girl for seven years and he didn't want me out of his sight, he just had a fit.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mrs. Starks:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Aha! Your dad had a fit? Oh.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, he had a fit. But he was very kind and good to me. Very nice. I said, when you get a man and he let you bring your family in and (they are) sick and do for them and he never said or mumbled a word.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, wow. That's a special person.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, very special. I said, Lord knows, you'd never find another one like him. I know I would never find another one. So it don't even bother me. (Chuckle) He passed in '94.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, how did your, what happened when your dad did find out that you had a school boyfriend?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh daddy didn't know I really had a boyfriend. See daddy was working. But momma used to, momma was good, she didn't fuss about him.
Ms. Lawrence:	She kind of kept your confidence?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes. Yeah I had a good momma. Bless her heart. Just as sweet as she could be.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you talk about boys with her?
Mrs. Starks:	Oh yes, she, like I told you, my grandma told me the facts of life -
Ms. Lawrence:	Now do you mean the facts of life like -
Mrs. Starks:	Yes!
Ms. Lawrence:	- sex. Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, and everything she told me was true.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did she tell you, do you mind me asking?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I ain't going to tell you that. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. (Laughter) Shoot!
Mrs. Starks:	Oh Lord!
Ms. Lawrence:	That would be so valuable, you know, no one knows this stuff!
Mrs. Starks:	Oh Lord, she used to tell me all the time, take care of yourself. But my husband was very good. We didn't have any children for fifteen months. I thought I wouldn't get pregnant after all. But I had five.
Ms. Lawrence:	You did pretty well.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, when I was twenty-three years old I didn't have nothing, last little one. But I had to, you know, you had to work so hard then. Like him trying to work, and raise the garden, and cows and hogs and canning.
Ms. Lawrence:	So they helped you? Your children?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes my children were very good. Still just as sweet as they can be. The boys just like the girls.
Ms. Lawrence:	What do you mean by that?
Mrs. Starks:	Anything I ask them to do, you know, that they can do, they do. And they - excuse me (wiped eyes) - they mind me good. I don't have any trouble with them. They never - they got whippings, for being bad, doing something mischievous, but they never a sassy bunch of children. I can't say that. And my oldest boy wouldn't hurt you for nothing, neither of the three of them. And the one here, me and him play all the time. He laughs, he says momma, says you talk so much foolishness. With the muscles in my back, see I pulled them when my husband was sick, lifting him, and I'm kind of hooked over from walking, sometimes it hurts so bad, he says momma you're talking foolish, you can't even get your leg up. I said, no, momma can't even get that up honey. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Can't get it where?
Mrs. Starks:	Can't get my leg, can't get my foot up, can't get your leg - I was still talking foolishness. (Chuckle) So now he carry me every place, you know, like getting into the truck or into the car. (Chuckle) And then sometimes I have rheumatism in my shoulder and things, and then he, they'll help me. They're very good.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. That reminds me of something actually. When you were young, um, did you, you know, what happened when you took sick? Who took care of you? Did you take care of yourselves and -
Mrs. Starks:	Like what kind of sickness hon?
Ms. Lawrence:	Like if you just, even if you got a cold.
Mrs. Starks:	Oh I took care of myself. I really never have been really sick.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. That's great. What about your siblings?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, I had to take care of them you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. But early on, did your, did your mother use any home remedies, herbs from the garden maybe.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, herbs like, you make your tea for a cold or something. You know, cherry bark tea or something. And you had mustard plasters if you had, over to your chest for a cold. And all that kind of stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was that from the mustard plant?
Mrs. Starks:	No, that's mustard like, you cook with it, that kind of mustard.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. Uh-huh. Huh.
Mrs. Starks:	And then at that time, you had Vick's salve, and all that stuff and she had that medicine what I couldn't stand. (Inaudible) something so bitter.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ugh. What was that for?
Mrs. Starks:	Cold. Castor oil and all that stuff, woo (makes sound indicating unpleasantness). They took care of you.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Did you ever go to a doctor when you were a child?
Mrs. Starks:	I never went to a doctor too much.
Ms. Lawrence:	Were there clinics?
Mrs. Starks:	I used to have sore throats but they, you know, wash, you had Listerine, you had peroxide, you had salt and soda and all that kind of stuff. You mix the salt and soda together and wash, you know, just gargle.
Ms. Lawrence:	Gargle?
Mrs. Starks:	But sometimes we had to go to the doctor to get medicine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Really? Yeah, for more serious things?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Where was that doctor?
Mrs. Starks:	He was Dr. Early. He and his men right there.
Ms. Lawrence:	And do you remember at school, if there were any people who came from, you know, kind of, like visiting nurses or Jeanes Teachers?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah we had visiting nurses.
Ms. Lawrence:	At the school?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. We used to have to take shots for different things.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	And blood test us.
Ms. Lawrence:	What were the blood tests for?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, just to see, you know, what kind of disease or something you had. I always remember my blood was type "O".
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. It's the universal, right?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm, that's what they said so.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember, um, demonstration agents at all, home demonstration agents?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, maybe we had one or two. It was in the old schools.
Ms. Lawrence:	In the where?
Mrs. Starks:	I said when we was in the old one up on top of the hill.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. What did they teach you?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, mostly hygiene, you know, books.
Ms. Lawrence:	And what would that be like?
Mrs. Starks:	Health.
Ms. Lawrence:	How to, how to shampoo your hair? -
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. They tell you, it was something with everything in it. How to take care of yourself.
Ms. Lawrence:	What's that?
Mrs. Starks:	How to take care of yourself.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did they have charts? You know, like -
Mrs. Starks:	No, we didn't ever have no charts.
Ms. Lawrence:	Visual aids or anything?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-mm. (indicates no)
Ms. Lawrence:	Just talked.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember Jeanes Teachers? Does that ring a bell?
Mrs. Starks:	Hm?
Ms. Lawrence:	Jeanes Teachers, they were special, um, supervising teachers in the rural areas of the South.
Mrs. Starks:	There might have been some but I don't remember.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, okay, I was just wondering. How often did you go into Charlottesville, if you did, as a child?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, we went to Scottsville more than we did anyplace else.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. How often did you go to Scottsville?
Mrs. Starks:	My momma made me went once or twice a month, when she would take us.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. What for?
Mrs. Starks:	Just to go to the store. They had little variety stores, food stores, and had cleaners down there and things like that, a theater.
Ms. Lawrence:	Theaters?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you would take the whole family to the theater?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, she would take all of us. Like I said, daddy, see daddy wasn't at home all the time. She had to act for daddy and herself. We had a good momma. My mother was so good.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Sounds -
Mrs. Starks:	I just loved her to death. I said Lord, if she was still here, I didn't mind lifting her.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! I feel the same way about my mother.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes honey. Ain't nothing like mothers. Momma was fifty-six years old.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. That's young. So, what else was your experience in Scottsville? I mean, what about segregation?
Mrs. Starks:	Well. It, I can't say it was, it never bothered me too much. It was segregated some of the places that they went to, but I always remember that, oh, Mr. and Mrs. Thacker had a restaurant and they were very nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	Were they white?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, they were white. And we always went there, got food, and you could sit down and eat. There was a Raymond and Homer Thacker that -
Ms. Lawrence:	There was a what did you say?
Mrs. Starks:	There was a mortician's, and they sold - Raymond and Homer Thacker was morticians - their mother and father were the ones who had the restaurant.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	And they had a sister named Elizabeth, and me and her, we would talk and get along. She did like I did. She got married too when she was young. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Get out of the house. (Chuckle)
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. And their father and mother, Mr. and Mrs. Thacker had, at the restaurant, their daughter worked in there with them. It was very nice. They - we didn't ever had no trouble, never had no trouble. There's a mortician here now, what they sold that place to a Laden and Linda Jones (Phonetically) down here in Scottsville now. And they are nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	So were you friends with their daughter?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Like, did you socialize together?
Mrs. Starks:	No, we didn't go no place, but I always go to the restaurant and we was there, we'd have fun. She'd tell me what she was doing and, (Laughter) yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. Did you get a little privacy away from your parents to talk?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, yes I did. Because I, you know, I met her after, before and afterwards too. My husband would be with me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, this is later, I see. Okay. So, was the theater segregated?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-mm. (Indicates no) I don't think so.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Starks:	Because I, we went there. I remember, because I used to take my children down there.
Ms. Lawrence:	But when you were a child, you also went?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I didn't go when I was younger.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay.
Mrs. Starks:	See I got married when I was fifteen. I didn't bother going down there at all.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. You were too busy being -
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah because I'd be at home to help.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, okay. Let's see how we're doing here. (Looking at tape) Oop, we're almost done with the first side. Maybe I'll stop it right now.
	(Tape recorder is stopped and tape turned over)
Mrs. Starks:	I was always active in the church. And still is. And, what else did I do? And I was a member of the P.T.A. meeting. School. At Yancey. When my children were born. My children went over here to this school next to our church first.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh, their teacher was Mrs. Fossie Price. (Phonetically) I guess it was -
Ms. Lawrence:	At Yancey school? Or this, this -
Mrs. Starks:	No, over here. Chestnut Grove school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Who's the, who was the principal of the Chestnut Grove school, or was there a principal?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, first principal was Mr. Bennett, and the next one I think was Mr. Kale I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Great.
Mrs. Starks:	I think Mr. Bennett was there when we was at school, we were going.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did you do after school?
Mrs. Starks:	What I did?
Ms. Lawrence:	As a child, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Go home, clean up in the wintertime, wintertime you had to clean up, get your wood in, pick your chips up, milk your cow, feed your hogs and your chickens, and then get your lesson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Then get your lesson?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	From your mom?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, she lessoned us.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. What kind of lesson?
Mrs. Starks:	School lesson.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you had school in the morning.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, we had walked to school.
Ms. Lawrence:	You had, you'd, first you'd do chores in the morning. Then you walked to school, have a day of school -
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm, then come back -
Ms. Lawrence:	Then come back -
Mrs. Starks:	- home and get your water and -
Ms. Lawrence:	- more -
Mrs. Starks:	- your chips and things up for the next day.
Ms. Lawrence:	And then another lesson?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was, what does your mom teach you? Like just general, extra schooling?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, just general.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So did you play with any of your neighbors?
Mrs. Starks:	I didn't worry so much about playing. I just always kept me busy in the house by being the oldest.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Okay. Do you remember any of your neighbors though?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah most of them from the school. I got a cousin, Amanda Londree, and Mabel Agee, and my aunts, Alice Anderson and Marjie Wicks, Anna Wicks, Ellen Rush and the boys, Terry Gilliam, Allen boys - Stanley Allen, Dan, and, oh yes, Ed Rush, William Rush, John Rush and Alzea Rush, it was just a gang of us. Just some many of them I can't name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. And did people, the neighbors, ever come over here aside from holidays, just to visit, or did you go over there just to visit?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, we would, momma always gave us playtime to go to, you know, to visit with your playmates. So when she'd tell you stay out, you got to stay out and come back, be on time. We would know we -
Ms. Lawrence:	When would you play, if you were working doing the chores so much?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, most of the time, we actually get through with them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh. So you might come back when it was dark?
Mrs. Starks:	Sometimes. We used to like to play dominos. We'd do it, stay there at home and do that.
Ms. Lawrence:	What else did you play?
Mrs. Starks:	Puzzles. I didn't play cards. I never played cards. Never played cards.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was that, why was that?
Mrs. Starks:	Nothing, I just didn't. I wasn't like the rest of them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	Still isn't. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you ever go to stores with other children? I know there's a little store in Esmont.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, we used to walk to, momma would send us up there for groceries sometimes. After we got big enough to do it, she'd know what to send. She'd always write a note or something.
Ms. Lawrence:	So they would know that -
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	- they could give you the food. And I've heard that there, back then, there were sometimes what were called house parties. Do you remember any of those?
Mrs. Starks:	I didn't go to them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Was that because they were not something you were supposed to do?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, as a child, I was supposed to stay at home. (Chuckle) Ah no, I never went to house parties too much.
Ms. Lawrence:	Never went what?
Mrs. Starks:	I said I never went to house parties too much. No, indeed.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. How about after -
Mrs. Starks:	I don't believe I never went to any.
Ms. Lawrence:	Plenty of other things to do. What, what did you do when you were married? What kinds of things did you and your family do in your leisure time, for, kind of relaxation?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, after we washed, we cleaned up, we ironed, we had a day to wash, we had a day to iron, and we had a day to mend your clothes. And then I washed my babies, after I was raising, I was married fifteen months before I had any babies. And then after I had my children I washed my children every day.
Ms. Lawrence:	Everyday? You gave them a bath everyday?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes indeed honey. We washed their clothes out.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Growing up in your house did you guys bathe everyday?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, well we had to have water in the tub.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Bring it all way from the well, right? The spring?
Mrs. Starks:	No, bring it from the spring.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, that's a long trek.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, we bring it from the spring. Oh you have to excuse me.
	(Tape temporarily stopped)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, we're back. Um, did you have any relatives or friends who lived in Proffit?
Mrs. Starks:	I don't think so.
Ms. Lawrence:	No? Okay. And did you know the Benjamin Yancey family at all?
Mrs. Starks:	I knew his son.
Ms. Lawrence:	Which one?
Mrs. Starks:	Roger. You just, at a school like that -
Ms. Lawrence:	Roger?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I knew him some.
Ms. Lawrence:	How did you know him?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, they was as old as my parents was, that's how I knew them. And I knew the daughter, May.
Ms. Lawrence:	Because they lived here until maybe the '30s?
Mrs. Starks:	And I know the mother.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. Harriet.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes. But see, as a child, you know, I was younger than they were, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Yeah, right. And, what did you think of the family? Like, what's your, I'm asking you this because we found a bunch of letters of Reverend Yancey and like, just a lot, and so we're going through them and we just want a, want a kind of a sense um, of how they were viewed as a family in the community.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, when I knew them, they would come home every summer, but they were very nice people. Very, very nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	And, were they nice to you specifically?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, my husband's sister married in the family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. What was her name?
Mrs. Starks:	My husband's -
Ms. Lawrence:	Your sister-in-law?
Mrs. Starks:	Hestine Starks.
Ms. Lawrence:	What's her first name?
Mrs. Starks:	Hestine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oo, how do you spell that?
Mrs. Starks:	How do you spell that? H.E.S.T.I N.E. That's the way he spelled it.
Ms. Lawrence:	And, remind me of your husband's name?
Mrs. Starks:	My husband's name was Lewis J. Starks.
Ms. Lawrence:	J. Starks. What was the J. for?
Mrs. Starks:	Senior. Uh, Joseph.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Thank you. So did you ever socialize with May or Roger and their families?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, I'll tell you like this. They were - yes, I socialized, but they, you know, they were older than I, and they, when they used to come home every summer we would go out to visit their cousin, Mrs. Beatrice Banks.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was her last name?
Mrs. Starks:	Visit their cousin Mrs. Beatrice Banks.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay, okay. Oh right. I've heard of her.
Mrs. Starks:	And you see, Lewis's sister married Mrs. Beatrice Banks's brother, William Henry Ford.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ford? Okay.
Mrs. Starks:	So you know, by me being younger than they were, but, you know, I still, I was always around, I'll say the ones that most of us, older than I were, because see, when I got married, I didn't go nowhere too much, no more than church, just went to school and things. I raised my children. I was a home wife. Still I like to stay at home.
Ms. Lawrence:	And, what does your husband do?
Mrs. Starks:	My husband first, when I met him, he came home from New Jersey as I told you. That's how I met him. He worked in New Jersey, he worked at a place where he made iron and everything. That's what he worked at. Then when he come home, he, you know, you could cut pulpwood, he worked that a while, and he worked for the W.P.A. a while. And then he worked on the railroad, but before he went to New Jersey he worked on the railroad. And he worked on the railroad, and then he worked for, let me see give me a minute now, I'll get it right in a minute. Telegram and Telephone Company, putting wires up for them. The East Coast to the West Coast, he worked there for a while. But he didn't work too long there because it took lot of two weeks to catch up with them. See they go from one place to another, and then he had a job on the railroad, worked for a railroad there. But he worked on the railroad before he went up to New Jersey to there, he wasn't nothing but a young, young, you know, young man. He worked in Ohio, Kentucky -
Ms. Lawrence:	This was after you got married?
Mrs. Starks:	No, before.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, okay. Then after you got married, he worked on the W.P.A. program for a while.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, for a while.
Ms. Lawrence:	And what was he doing there specifically?
Mrs. Starks:	They were building roads and things. He was, he worked there, and then like I told you he worked for Telegram and Telephone Company. Then he worked for the railroad and he stayed in railroad for three or four years. He came home and he didn't, you see, he didn't want to be away from us.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Because it was too much. So he came home to stay. But then he got a job to work at the highway Department of Transportation.
Ms. Lawrence:	Great.
Mrs. Starks:	And he worked there for about, in all I think it was, what, thirty-seven years.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So then he could kind of settle down and stick around.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, mm-hm. He was an equipment operator.
Ms. Lawrence:	And how did you run your household with him, in terms of discipline and making those big decisions about your children.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, I mostly did most, because he was working all the time. These children laugh now, they say I used to put them on the row -
Ms. Lawrence:	On the what?
Mrs. Starks:	Put them in the row standing all, the (Inaudible) and whip them one by one. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	And whip them one by one? Oh! (Chuckle)
Mrs. Starks:	(Laughing) When they did something bad.
Ms. Lawrence:	All, all five of them, right?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did the same bad thing. That couldn't have been too often.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, well you know in the summertime, children like getting into bees and things. They go and get in the bees' nest and come back hollering and crying. You had to whip them, tell them to stay out. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. (Chuckle) Yup.
Mrs. Starks:	And my grandchildren laugh now, they say, they call me Big Mamma -
Ms. Lawrence:	Big Mamma?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	B.I.G.?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh. And they said Big Mamma don't whip us, and said all the children, make them get a whipping when they didn't need it. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Well that's not fair.
Mrs. Starks:	Oh Lord. (Chuckle) Yeah I tried to do the best I could and raise them. Did like momma done taught us.
Ms. Lawrence:	And did you tell all of your children the facts of life?
Mrs. Starks:	My girls?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, and your boys.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I tell all of them.
Ms. Lawrence:	What age did you do that?
Mrs. Starks:	Age? Oh well I think when little boys get little beards down here, they should be told. And we know how we women are, we girls, we children, at our age, you know how we start out. Well I think they should be told. What do you say?
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh I'm afraid, I think maybe even a little younger, just because they get so much from the media. I would like to clarify things maybe even earlier. I don't know.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, well, I say, they mature so young now. Eleven and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah! I know, you're right.
Mrs. Starks:	And now you have to tell them, some of them nine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, so. It's tricky.
Mrs. Starks:	And I told them, if a girl mature at that age, you know, little boys do too.
Ms. Lawrence:	Little boys do too?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, oh yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	And you have to tell them.
Ms. Lawrence:	I know, I know. It's difficult. Good for you!
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. I still talk to them. They like to get around Big Mamma because Big Mamma don't care what she tell them.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right.
Mrs. Starks:	I don't.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well -
Mrs. Starks:	I just tell them what it is. You know, I'm not the normal (Inaudible). It's no disgrace, but you need education now. And they have better opportunity in life.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. So, what about your grandchildren? Like, your grandmother told you the facts of life.
Mrs. Starks:	That's one, I tell them anything too. And they just laugh.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's wonderful.
Mrs. Starks:	But they're very very very sweet. They come from school now, each one will come in here and give me a kiss and a hug. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. That's nice.
Mrs. Starks:	I got the third generation.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	I got one baby born in October. Another one born before that. I'm trying to think now when Darren was born. Darren was born before Jessie did.
Ms. Lawrence:	Are you talking about great grandchildren now?
Mrs. Starks:	The third. Like my grandchildren now, my son's children, are my, they're the first grandchildren. And then his children got children. That's the second. And then, some of my second, my first grandchildren got children, and see that's the third generation.
Ms. Lawrence:	Or the fourth one. Oh no, you're right.
Mrs. Starks:	The third.
Ms. Lawrence:	Four. If you're the first. Your son's the second.
Mrs. Starks:	My son's girls now, he got children. All the son. Now, they got three. She don't have any, nothing but her three. And my older son, that's six, seven children, and all his girls got children. And he had three sets of twins.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh my gosh!
Mrs. Starks:	He had one little set in '69. That was his last set, they got little boys. And my second son, he had, let's see, he got two boys and three, two boys - Keith and Alex, Courtenay and Karen. So he had four. Yeah, he had four.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's a big family.
Mrs. Starks:	And my baby girl, she had two. Her oldest got killed in a car wreck in '91. He would have been thirty-eight I reckon. And my oldest girl, she got three, and her oldest daughter had three children. The second girl got two. And the baby boy had one. And the oldest girl just got a little baby born two weeks, two weeks old.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. It's about this big (Indicates with hands held up about a foot apart)
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, she weighed, what did she say it weighed? I believe she said it weighed nine pounds. But it had lost four pounds - four ounces - before he left the hospital because you know they lose before.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. Do you remember your mother being pregnant?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you saw that.
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, my mother was pregnant with the last two children she had. They were - excuse me - Thelma and Marva. Well see, my oldest child - Thelma is, Thelma was born in February, and my oldest son was born in August, so we were pregnant at the same time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh wow, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Was pregnant, both of us. And her last two girls, the oldest one, Thelma, and my oldest son was born the same year.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mrs. Starks:	And that was '38. And her second child, well she, her girl, Marva, she was born in '41, and my third one, Bobbyjean was born in '41. So mothers and daughters having children the same.
Ms. Lawrence:	To compare notes.
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	How, you said that you sewed a lot of your clothes. Did you ever use a catalog to purchase any clothes?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes we used to do a lot of ordering from Sears Roebuck.
Ms. Lawrence:	Sears Roebuck? Uh-huh. Just clothes, or any other things?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, my husband bought our furniture there when we built our home.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. And did traveling salespeople ever come through?
Mrs. Starks:	No, didn't, no, we didn't see anything.
Ms. Lawrence:	What about circus?
Mrs. Starks:	You mean go to circus?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, did you ever? Or did the traveling circus ever come by?
Mrs. Starks:	No, mm-mm.
Ms. Lawrence:	So your entertainment was pretty confined to local?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, at the church, and school activities. Like I said, I belonged to the P.T.A. meeting, and my children went to Burley High School, and my daughter went to University. The baby girl, she went to New York, to business college there. Then she come back and finish her education at Howard University.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. I might live near there next year.
Mrs. Starks:	Oh that would be nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Just be careful. It's so rough.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. Well.
Mrs. Starks:	That's what I tell my grandchildren now, what I got up there. My baby girl got a home up there, but, just a brick home over here.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, I was just talking to Vercal about how the country has its appeal. It's so peaceful out here.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. So she says she's going to retire and come home. I hope she do, because she has inflammatory rheumatism in her back.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, that's an awful disease.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, sometimes she can't hardly walk.
Ms. Lawrence:	I guess um, I just want a sense from you a little bit more, you talked about Scottsville and how you felt quite comfortable there in terms of segregation or, you know, white/black contact or whatever. Was there any other experiences of segregation that you can recall?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I never had no trouble to tell the truth. I ain't used to telling a lie.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Living in Esmont, so -
Mrs. Starks:	No, not in Esmont neither. We had one family in Esmont, the lady went to Albemarle. Mr. and Mrs. Pete Purvis. They was our friends.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was their name again?
Mrs. Starks:	Mr. and Mrs. Pete Purvis.
Ms. Lawrence:	Pete Harris?
Mrs. Starks:	Purvis.
Ms. Lawrence:	Purvis, P.U.R.V.I.S.?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And they were white?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. And then I had a white family that I was raised up with on the farm not too far from where I was raised, my home. And those girls, I stayed with them and they stayed with me.
Ms. Lawrence:	What do you mean you were raised up with them?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes. They lived a little ways on the farm from me.
Ms. Lawrence:	What were their names?
Mrs. Starks:	Thackers.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh the Thackers. I thought they were in Scottsville.
Mrs. Starks:	No, these were from Schuyler.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. And you weren't raised on their farm, or were you?
Mrs. Starks:	No, no we owned ours. They was, the farm what they lived on.
Ms. Lawrence:	And you played with them?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, we was, you know, girls growing up with girls, we would go about together. I think there was one boy in the bunch. They would come and stay with me and I would go and stay with them.
Ms. Lawrence:	You would go and stay in this white family's house?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes indeed. Yes, sometimes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. What were their names, their first names?
Mrs. Starks:	I can't think of the girls now. I know one was Viola (Phonetically). I don't know why I think of Viola so, because she was kind of handicapped and she went to Staunton over there to school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh.
Mrs. Starks:	But they were very sweet.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. So, how did you get to know them?
Mrs. Starks:	Well. They moved from Schuyler down, down here and we just met. And the mother and father were very nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. What did they do in terms of work?
Mrs. Starks:	I don't know what their father did for work but the girls was home, all of them went to school.
Ms. Lawrence:	And the mom stayed home too?
Mrs. Starks:	Well yeah, the momma stayed home.
Ms. Lawrence:	And where exactly did they live? In Esmont?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, they lived right down near Sharon Church, because see when you leave and go around the side to our church, the white church is up there in the fork, that's the white church, Sharon Church, on the corner. And they lived right down the hill. And then the Hamills (Phonetically) -
Ms. Lawrence:	Hamill's?
Mrs. Starks:	Hamills, Hamills, yeah. Nick Hamill and his parents, his sisters.
Ms. Lawrence:	Were they white too?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	And you were friends with them?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes indeed.
Ms. Lawrence:	And played with them?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. I didn't ever have no trouble myself.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, clearly. Did anyone else kind of look at you funny because you were doing that?
Mrs. Starks:	No, they didn't bother me. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	If they did. (Laughter)
Mrs. Starks:	No indeed.
Ms. Lawrence:	I mean, did you ignore it or were you, are you saying that basically everyone in the community thought it was fine?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, everybody got along fine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Starks:	Still do. Yep, still do. Like I said, with the with the Purvis family, Lucille, they owned a store down in the bottom in Esmont, and we used to do our, buy our groceries there. When her daughter would have a play or something, or school or going to church, she would borrow little things from my oldest girl to wear, you know. They were like that, they got along fine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. Definitely.
Mrs. Starks:	And they visited us all the time, we visited them.
Ms. Lawrence:	In your houses?
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, uh-huh. And we had a good time. Yeah I still, I got friends, plenty of white friends, old and young.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Even right now. Always did get along with people. I said God made all of us. He had to make his flowers.
Ms. Lawrence:	Make his flowers.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, that's what I call it sometimes.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's nice. Oh nice, yeah.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, he made this world so then he put these pretty flowers in, all kinds of colors. All you got to do is treat people right, people treat you right. Like my momma always told me, she told me right.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, mm-hm. So it sounds like your mom, not just your grandmother but your mom kind of talked to you about life too?
Mrs. Starks:	Well, yeah, she did. There wasn't nothing she didn't tell me too, but Granny used to tell me everything. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. (Chuckle)
Mrs. Starks:	My Grandma used to tell me everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh. What are some of the things that she told you that, you know, that that you didn't get from anywhere else? Like you didn't get it from school, you didn't get it from church, you didn't get it from your friends. There were special things she told you.
Mrs. Starks:	Well, she always told me you had to take care of myself and how to treat people. Live a Christian life. Granny would tell me that all the time. Yes indeed. And she was so sweet. When my husband was co-deacon, he would take Granny to the church and she would go along with me and my other cousin. All of we just had the best time.
Ms. Lawrence:	So he knew how to act, he knew how to get to your heart. (Laughter)
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah. (Laughter) Yeah, Granny would be right with us, and my cousins.
Ms. Lawrence:	So before you got married, did she kind of act as a chaperone?
Mrs. Starks:	No, she didn't worry with me doing nothing wrong really.
Ms. Lawrence:	So could you go to church alone with him, before you got married?
Mrs. Starks:	Uh-huh, yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Okay, that's good.
Mrs. Starks:	And she, you know, they were just church people.
Ms. Lawrence:	The Starks?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well Mrs. Starks, is there anything else that you think I haven't asked you that you should tell me or any stories that you think are really funny or interesting?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I will keep all the funny things to myself. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Why? I like humor!
Mrs. Starks:	All the funny things, I can't tell you all the funny things. See, if I'm not on the interview, then I could tell you about the funny thing. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay. I'm going to turn it off right now then!
Mrs. Starks:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, so nothing else?
Mrs. Starks:	(Laughter) No.
Ms. Lawrence:	We're set, okay. I am ending the interview right now.
	(Tape turned off, but then back on)
Ms. Lawrence:	Returning for a second here.
Mrs. Starks:	Mrs. Falls and Mrs. Lightfoot.
Ms. Lawrence:	Who are they?
Mrs. Starks:	Teachers.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. At Chestnut Grove School?
Mrs. Starks:	Mm-hm. Mrs. Falls was the last one. That's when I repeated the eighth grade.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Why did you have to repeat the eighth grade?
Mrs. Starks:	Because mommy wasn't able to send me to, at the Yancey High School.
Ms. Lawrence:	Why was she not able to send you?
Mrs. Starks:	Because, well, I was needed at home with her.
Ms. Lawrence:	To work?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	And so, instead of just having -
Mrs. Starks:	With other children, yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, work with the children. So, she didn't want you just idle for that year, she wanted to give you more education?
Mrs. Starks:	Yes, uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. All right. Oh what about sports, that is something I forgot to ask you. Did you do any sports?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I didn't do much sports.
Ms. Lawrence:	At school?
Mrs. Starks:	No, I used to like to sew.
Ms. Lawrence:	Sew? The home sport.
Mrs. Starks:	Yeah, I liked to sew and I liked to cook.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Okay now I'm going to turn it off for the second time.
Mrs. Starks:	All right.
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of Mary Starks on May 24, 2002, by Sarah Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)