Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of Kathryn Simpson on August 2, 2002, by Sarah Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)
Biographical Information Mrs. Kathryn Simpson was born in 1913 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. When she was three, she was sent to Esmont to live with her grandparents. Simpson's father had abandoned his wife, taking Simpson's one sister with him. Her grandfather was very strict, prohibiting her from dancing in the house and telling potential suitors that "I didn't turn her loose yet". Neighborhood children were wary of visiting her home as a result, but they would often come on Sundays when her grandmother made ice cream. Simpson's grandparents sent her to school early in order to provide her more companionship. She describes the competition in academics between the boys and girls, as well as trips she took to nearby towns through school, church, or social clubs. She emphasizes how the adults in the community kept certain topics from the ears of children; for example, how the church provided aid to the community's needy. Other details recalled by Simpson are the favorite Christmas gifts she received, health remedies, and visits by neighbors. She also recounts a white woman's racist affront to her in a local store. Simpson decided to move to the city after finishing high school, in order to see "the big city" and to have more freedom. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. Brackets have been used to indicate additions made to the text upon review by the interviewee. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Ms. Lawrence:	This is Sarah Lawrence interviewing Ms. Kathryn Simpson at her home in Esmont on August 2, 2002. Good morning!
Mrs. Simpson:	Good morning, how are you?
Ms. Lawrence:	Good, how are you doing? Um, well I just said this but could you state for the record your name please?
Mrs. Simpson:	Kathryn Simpson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, any middle name?
Mrs. Simpson:	Wilson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And, when and where were you born?
Mrs. Simpson:	In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	I was born March 18, 1913.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And, what were your parents' names?
Mrs. Simpson:	Sippio - S.I.P.P.I.O.
Ms. Lawrence:	I.O.
Mrs. Simpson:	- Wilson. And Loretta Wilson. Loretta Smith - [Mrs. Simpson added later that when her mother was married, her name was Lora, later "when she got more sophisticated" she changed it to Loretta.]
Ms. Lawrence:	Loretta Smith Wilson?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, Loretta Wilson Smith.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, Wilson Sm-
Mrs. Simpson:	Or, what was she...Loretta -
Ms. Lawrence:	Smith was her maiden name?
Mrs. Simpson:	No. [Mrs. Simpson later clarified that her mother's name was "Loretta Wilson Smith"]
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes. Okay. So -
Mrs. Simpson:	Loretta Wilson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wilson. Okay. Did she use the middle name or did she just call herself Mrs. Wilson?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, no.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And what year were they born respectively? Do you remember?
Mrs. Simpson:	I haven't the faintest idea.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Where were they raised?
Mrs. Simpson:	My mother was raised here in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	My father, so I understand, was raised in Atlanta, Georgia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And do you remember your grandparents' names and -
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandparents, John Smith, he was a deacon of New Hope Baptist Church.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And Katie Smith.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, and that's on your mom's side.
Mrs. Simpson:	On my mom's side. I don't know my father's.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And, so Katie and John probably grew up here in Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	I imagine they did.
Ms. Lawrence:	Or, who knows. You're not quite sure.
Mrs. Simpson:	They were grown, they were grown when I got here. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right, okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And they lived in, as long as I've known them, they have been living here.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And where did you spend your childhood?
Mrs. Simpson:	From age three until age seventeen I spent it here.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. In Esmont.
Mrs. Simpson:	In Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right. Living with whom?
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandparents.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. On your mom's side.
Mrs. Simpson:	On my mom's side.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right. And where exactly did they live? What house?
Mrs. Simpson:	Hmm?
Ms. Lawrence:	Where on, on Porter's Road did they live, or here or -
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandparents?
Ms. Lawrence:	Your grandparents.
Mrs. Simpson:	They lived here in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	But I mean what particular house?
Mrs. Simpson:	Previously?
Ms. Lawrence:	Um, just, in what house did you grow up?
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh. They had a house farther down on the property.
Ms. Lawrence:	On this road.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, but it has since been demolished.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So, we are just off Porter's Road but there's a little driveway here, I want to state for the record, you would keep going down there.
Mrs. Simpson:	Right, right.
Ms. Lawrence:	How many acres of land did they have?
Mrs. Simpson:	Eight. [Mrs. Simpson later added that her grandparents owned 12 acres, not 8.]
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Um, what are some of your earliest memories of Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh boy.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well that's rather general. How about we start with life around the home?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, when I, I remember when my mother brought me here, you know, a walking child, some man was with her and brought me to my grandparents.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm. Some man who was not your father?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh. But he belonged here, he saw my mother some kind of way here, in Esmont. And -
Ms. Lawrence:	When she was visiting?
Mrs. Simpson:	When she came to bring me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And he saw her coming, so he just picked me up and walked her to my grandparents.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And that's how I got there.
Ms. Lawrence:	How did she arrive? By train?
Mrs. Simpson:	I imagine so, I imagine so. Because at that particular time I think that was the only transportation and she came by train.
Ms. Lawrence:	And she had no idea who this man was?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes she knew.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh she did.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, because she had grown up here and the man had grown up here, but, I used to know his name but I don't remember now. But, that's irrelevant anyway. But she brought me to my grandparents and as a little child I used to love to dance.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And my grandparents, my grandfather, was a very strict man. He was very strict. Everybody thought he was mean but I don't think he was mean, he was just strict. And when I got here and got settled and everything I started to do the dance that I always did while I was at home and he said, 'There won't be no dancing here.' He was so, religious person, and he didn't believe in dancing and all that kind of stuff. So that cut out the dancing. And as far as I can remember, I don't know exactly when my mother went back, but she left me with them, during my growing up time.
Ms. Lawrence:	So she spend a little time here with you, in your grandparents' house, before she returned.
Mrs. Simpson:	Before she went back to New York. And then she went back to New York -
Ms. Lawrence:	To New York, not Philadelphia?
Mrs. Simpson:	I mean Philadelphia. She used to visit quite often, back and forth. After growing up here I considered my grandmother as my mother because I was always with her and she was such a kind person. So, any time I called my mother 'mother' was when I wanted something and I would write to her 'Dear Mom, I need this that and the other' but any other time I called her by her name.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) Her first name?
Mrs. Simpson:	Her first name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Because she was like a sister to me instead of like a mother.
Ms. Lawrence:	How many siblings did you have?
Mrs. Simpson:	I had one more, but my father somehow stole that one and went off somewhere and we never saw him or the child again.
Ms. Lawrence:	When did that happen?
Mrs. Simpson:	That was while we were still in Philadelphia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, when you were a baby.
Mrs. Simpson:	When I was a baby, uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	And then you had one other, sibling?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, it was only two of us.
Ms. Lawrence:	Two of you, okay, okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	I don't like to think about that because I always think about what my mother went through after losing her child, you know, and not knowing where it was, where she was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. And she never found -
Mrs. Simpson:	We never know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was it a boy or a girl?
Mrs. Simpson:	A girl. Since I been grown I've been trying to research it, you know, research it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	And there was a young lady who was helping me and she researched all the way back to where we used to live in Philadelphia, and then she researched him as far as Georgia where he grew up, but somewhere along the line we lost that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And then from there, I just grew up around here as any child. I went to school and everything. I liked going to school because that meant leaving home and being around other children.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mrs. Simpson:	Because the principal at that time told my grandmother she should send me to school a year earlier than I was supposed to have gone, in order to be with the young people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And, well naturally I liked that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Because that was being with other people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	And um, I did well I think in school. I tried anyway.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And uh-
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember your teachers?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. Somebody -
Ms. Lawrence:	Any of them stand out?
Mrs. Simpson:	In high school I remember Reverend Jones. And in grade school there was...I can't remember. Anyway, if I think of it before then I'll tell you.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, that's fine. Can you describe what school was like? The classrooms, other students?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, it was nice because there were, in the class that I was in, there were more boys, more girls than there were boys. And we used to have a nice time together. We tried to outdo the boys. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) In what way? In terms of the studies?
Mrs. Simpson:	In studying, in the grades and everything. We'd try to outdo the boys and I still did that even in high school I tried to keep up with the boys because the boys seemed to be getting all of the higher grades and everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And -
Ms. Lawrence:	Why do you think that was?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, I, that was my thought. That was my thought. And I was trying to keep up with them. So, anyhow, when we got to high school, we had to write letters, at that particular time we were studying French, and we had to write letters in French, and I studied on the, you know, so that I could write my letter, so I could graduate, you know. If you wrote this letter, we wouldn't have to take the last graduation, the last test for graduation. So I wrote my letter, when I got it back, I, it was a perfect letter, except in one little dot I forgot to put, and she gave me 'A minus' on that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mrs. Simpson:	And she gave the boys all 'A's and I was so upset.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well what did you do about it?
Mrs. Simpson:	Nothing, because what could you do with that? When we were growing up, if you were under teachers or parents, you didn't have any comeback. You just do what was....I passed, she passed me, I just didn't make that little dot there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Why do you think she did that?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well she said I forgot to do something on a word, so she just put it a minus.
Ms. Lawrence:	But I mean why do you think she gave the boys all 'A's?
Mrs. Simpson:	Because their work was perfect.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mrs. Simpson:	They had no, their letters were perfect.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And my letter was the only one that had one little mistake on it. And I didn't like that because I was trying to keep up with the boys.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) What about other activities at school, like play?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well we used to play ball. We used to play baseball, and do a little running. And the exercises. Like the exercises they do now, we used to do that in school.
Ms. Lawrence:	You went like this, do you mean, like, calisthenics?
Mrs. Simpson:	Right. And deep breathing and all that kind of stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm. Did you play sports with the boys?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. Sometimes we did, but most of the time we watched them playing ball and all that kind of stuff. But we were all together, doing our work like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you put on any plays?
Mrs. Simpson:	Plays? No.
Ms. Lawrence:	At church?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you go to the church here?
Mrs. Simpson:	When I, yes, I grew up in this church.
Ms. Lawrence:	And could you just state for the record what that church is?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Could you just say that's the New Hope -
Mrs. Simpson:	The New Hope Baptist Church.
Ms. Lawrence:	Baptist Church.
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh, I grew up there in the church. And we did Sunday school stuff and youth, worked with the youth and all like that. And I was, after I grew up enough to be able to keep records I was the financial secretary of the church.
Ms. Lawrence:	Before you moved at seventeen?
Mrs. Simpson:	No no no. Different. I'm thinking after I came back.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay after you came back.
Mrs. Simpson:	After I came back again, the second time. They all get mixed up. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) I'm getting mixed up, not you.
Mrs. Simpson:	But before, I liked the church because we used to have plays and do things for Sunday school, go on trips, you know, go on little trips.
Ms. Lawrence:	Where'd you go?
Mrs. Simpson:	We'd go to the park or to wherever they would be taking us. A lot of times we would go to, the leader of the youth would always take us different places.
Ms. Lawrence:	In Esmont or?
Mrs. Simpson:	Sometime in Esmont and sometime around in the community. It's been so long I forgot half of that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. But you would definitely travel a little ways. Was it -
Mrs. Simpson:	With the group. She would always take the group out places.
Ms. Lawrence:	Would you walk?
Mrs. Simpson:	Sometimes. I remember one time in school, we had to walk, and we walked from Esmont to Scottsville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	And I thought that was beautiful. Of course, I hadn't been going to Scottsville and I didn't even know what Scottsville looked like. And, walk into Scottsville at that age and at that time, was a great treat.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. How, were you fairly young, elementary school or -
Mrs. Simpson:	I was still in elementary school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	But I look at Scottsville now and it would take me a half an hour to ride there, goodness gracious. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. (Chuckle) Now, were you, did your grandparents go to Scottsville ever and just not take you, or did they not go to Scottsville?
Mrs. Simpson:	No we didn't go. My grandparents, they would go to the stores in Esmont, at the other end of Esmont, they would go to the stores there, but we never went to Scottsville.
Ms. Lawrence:	How about Charlottesville?
Mrs. Simpson:	I didn't even know where Charlottesville was. At that time I didn't know anything about it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow, wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	But my grandfather used to have to go there sometime on something business of his, and he would have somebody to take him there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	But, they would go by horse and buggy and that would take all day.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. So, did you have to do chores around the house?
Mrs. Simpson:	I had to learn how to iron, how to wash dishes, and I'd have little pieces of things I would have to wash, my grandmother would teach me how to take care of things in the house and how to clean the house, all like that. And, uh, not like the children of today. They sit down and wait for momma to do everything. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandma would teach me how to do things, and which I'm very glad that she did, because you have to depend on yourself and you have to know how to do that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right. What did your grandfather do for work?
Mrs. Simpson:	He was a farmer. At one time he worked, so they tell me, I wouldn't know, but he worked on the railroad when the railroad was real busy at that time. He was a worker on the railroad.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did that mean he was away from home a lot? Do you remember?
Mrs. Simpson:	I guess he was.
Ms. Lawrence:	And your grandmother -
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandmother stayed home all the time. She stayed with me. She was a very precious person. She would do like canning. Like, people have to, you got it easier now when they get all their canned foods already canned and everything. But she used to do the canning, stuff like that. My grandfather raised pigs. We didn't have to buy any food like that because he raised his own meat and had his own cows for milk, and stuff like that. The first time I had white bread I thought it was a treat. A treat to get a slice of white bread because we always, he always made the brown bread, corn and wheat and stuff, made his own flour and meal. So we didn't have to buy it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, right.
Mrs. Simpson:	When the time came and my grandmother would get a loaf of white bread I'd be so happy. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Now, did she get that from one of the Esmont stores?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes. We, all the stores, any shopping that was done was done in Esmont stores.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Could you name some of those stores? If you remember?
Mrs. Simpson:	Butlers.
Ms. Lawrence:	Butlers?
Mrs. Simpson:	And, oh boy. There were more than that wasn't there. I can't remember all that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was Butlers white or black?
Mrs. Simpson:	White. All the stores that had, all the people who had stores at that time were white. [Mrs. Simpson later added that there were two black stores at the time.]
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. And did you shop for clothes there at all?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn (indicates no), my mother always sent me my clothes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. From Philadelphia?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	How often would she visit?
Mrs. Simpson:	Maybe twice a year or whenever she could afford to. But mostly either once or twice a year.
Ms. Lawrence:	When you were growing up, did you belong to any social organizations? Even though you were young, was there any club? . . . . Just church group? Youth group?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, that's all.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did that have a name?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, just the New Hope Church young people. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. And, do you remember revivals?
Mrs. Simpson:	Revival time, yes. The cemetery was, at that time, the cemetery wasn't as well kept as it is now, and the men would get out and cut down the trees and everything, and the women would serve food, you know, make lunch and everything for them, preparing for revival time. And the day of revival would be a beautiful day because I'd be looking to see all the people I hadn't seen. And all of the food, the women would be cooking all day and preparing food and everything for revival time.
Ms. Lawrence:	And when you - I'm sorry (having interrupted).
Mrs. Simpson:	It was nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. When you say, you could see all the people, you saw more people than usual?
Mrs. Simpson:	Than usual yeah, because people who had lived here and had moved away to the cities and things, they came back for revival. The same like they do now, they come back for revival.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, okay. And, I heard that other communities would sometimes visit in other churches?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, yes. They do the same thing now. Like, when revival time comes, other communities come in and help with the revivals for that community.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And then you might go to a different church on another revival day?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, another revival day.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. I'm going to pause for a second. (tape momentarily stopped)
Ms. Lawrence:	All right, we're back. Um, I would like to ask you a little more about your life at home, um, with your grandparents, in terms of their roles, and, first of all, who exercised discipline most? Or could you just talk about that -
Mrs. Simpson:	Granddad.
Ms. Lawrence:	Your granddad?
Mrs. Simpson:	Granddad. He exercised discipline all the time. But my grandmother, you know, she was a kind person, she didn't pay it any attention. But, what granddad said, that was the rule of the house, at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. And did you follow the rules -
Mrs. Simpson:	Not all of the time but he didn't know it! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay! (Laughter) If you feel comfortable, could you talk a little bit about, about that. About little things you might do with your friends that -
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, I didn't have too many friends to come in and out, unless it was Sunday, because there wasn't much visitation stuff like that. Because on Sundays, we would, my grandmother would make ice cream.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm!
Mrs. Simpson:	Homemade ice cream. And some of the kids knew she would make the ice cream, and I didn't tell them, but then, the Sunday school or church would be over they'd beat me getting home. So my grandmother would say, 'You've been out running your mouth, telling I made ice cream' and I, 'I didn't tell nobody you made ice cream!' (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) You mean they came home before you got here?
Mrs. Simpson:	Sometimes, or we would come together, you know, we were all coming together.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	But it wouldn't mean, but she didn't care. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, that's so funny.
Mrs. Simpson:	They'd all come for ice cream. She used to make good ice cream.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm! There's nothing like homemade ice cream.
Mrs. Simpson:	Homemade ice cream.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, how about playing with those kids, kind of aside from school, did you play with children in the neighborhood much?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, because my grandfather was the type that the children didn't like to come around too much. So, I mostly grew up by myself. I used to play ball by myself. Throwing it up against the wall. And all like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, what about dating? When you hit your teenage years?
Mrs. Simpson:	Dating? (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Was there any such thing?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, after I left Esmont, after I left Virginia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! Oh well.
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, there was no dating going on while I was in Virginia. The first thing my dad - my granddad would tell them, 'I didn't turn her loose, she's not courting yet.'
Ms. Lawrence:	Wait, could you repeat that?
Mrs. Simpson:	The first thing my granddad would say to a young man if he thought he was looking at me or something, 'I didn't turn her loose yet, she's not courting.'
Ms. Lawrence:	She's not what?
Mrs. Simpson:	Courting.
Ms. Lawrence:	Courting! Ah okay. And that was pretty much his rule, yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, that was his rule. So I didn't start dating until I left Virginia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Did you make boy friends at school?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. I had boy friends at school but granddad didn't know it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. So, would you sometimes stay at school to hang out with them or -
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn, uhn-uhn (indicates no).
Ms. Lawrence:	No?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, you had to come home. When school was out. Because I didn't have far to come, just had to walk from there to here.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh. And what about the decision-making in your family, with your grandparents. Did they make decisions together? Or, I'm kind of thinking about general things about choices for you, or the budget or the farm or where to go to revival. . . .
Mrs. Simpson:	No, everything was governed by my granddad. My granddad governed everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, okay. Did you have other relatives in Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah I had Aunt Zett (Phonetically), Uncle Raymond, and I had my cousins - Lagrant Smith -
Ms. Lawrence:	Lagrand? Could you spell that?
Mrs. Simpson:	Lagrant. L.A.G.R.A.N.T.
Ms. Lawrence:	L.A.G.R.A.N.T. And the first Aunt Someone you said, was that Izetta?
Mrs. Simpson:	Izetta? No, Izetta was one of the, how many children? I've forgotten how many children. But the ones I, the one I grew up with was Aunt Annie.
Ms. Lawrence:	Aunt Annie, okay. So Annie, Raymond, Lagrant, these are all Smiths?
Mrs. Simpson:	Um, Raymond, Annie, Izetta, were brothers and sisters. Lagrant was my cousin. And Rosa, Justine, Hiawatha, are my cousins.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was the last one?
Mrs. Simpson:	Hiawatha.
Ms. Lawrence:	Could you spell that?
Mrs. Simpson:	H.I.A.W.A.T.H.A. I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right. And they were, what was their last name?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh, Smiths.
Ms. Lawrence:	They were Smiths, but they were cousins.
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh, they were my cousins. They were Raymond's children, Raymond Smith's children.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, I got it. Okay, Raymond's. Gotchya. And Lagrant was -
Mrs. Simpson:	Raymond Smith's child.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay. All right. Did you have any relatives in Proffit that you know of?
Mrs. Simpson:	In where?
Ms. Lawrence:	Proffit.
Mrs. Simpson:	Proffit?
Ms. Lawrence:	- Community. Yeah, it's a community, how far is it from here? Anyways, obviously not! Okay. We just have another project going on there, so we kind of wanted to see if there were links.
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh okay. No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. So you went to the Esmont School from a young age all the way through until seventeen?
Mrs. Simpson:	Seventeen, until I finished high school. I finished high school then.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Was that eleventh grade?
Mrs. Simpson:	I guess it was at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. At that time? Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And then I left town. I wanted to go to the big city. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. (Chuckle) Now, was that your decision? To leave?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, yes, because I, my mother came to visit and I told her I wanted to go back with her, and she was hesitating at the time, because I guess she had not been used to, you know, having young people around. So I hid her pocketbook and I told her that if I didn't go she wasn't going either. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Woo! Rock and roll! (Laughter)
Mrs. Simpson:	So anyway, that was, that made the decision.
Ms. Lawrence:	I guess so.
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. And, why did you want to leave?
Mrs. Simpson:	I don't know. I just wanted to leave. I just wanted to go somewhere else.
Ms. Lawrence:	Somewhere else.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. So I guess, like all young people after they hit a certain age, they want to expand themselves and see what's happening somewhere else. And get away from Granddad. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, I kind of thought that might come out! (Laughter)
Mrs. Simpson:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh. Did you have any plans for what you would do once you got into Philadelphia?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, I didn't even know where I was going. I didn't know anything about Pennsylvania. [Mrs. Simpson later added that it was New York, not Pennsylvania.]
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you speak to your mother before you left about if you would work or go, continue school?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn (indicates no).
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	I wasn't thinking about anything, one thing, only one thing, and that was leaving.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. What did your grandparents think about you leaving?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, my grandmother, she was for it, because she said it would make me happier. She was for it. I don't know what granddaddy thought. I didn't ask.
Ms. Lawrence:	And he didn't offer?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn (indicates no). Didn't complain either. But I guess he was glad I was gone. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	No! I'm sure not. Did you maintain correspondence with them?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, all during the years I, until they passed and I was still very close to them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. Did you visit here?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, once a year, twice a year, something like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you tell me a little bit about holidays and how you spent certain big holidays?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well Christmas was a big holiday because, being in the country, you know, it wasn't like it is now of course, because we didn't have all of the things like we have now, but for me it was a big holiday because I would be waiting for Santa Claus to come, and see what I was going to get. And at that time they'd always give you fruit and whatever they could afford to give you, and put it out Christmas Eve, and I'd be looking forward to that. One Christmas Eve, when I, one Christmas morning I went out and looking at all of my stuff, and there was an envelope with money in it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And written on the envelope, to me, with my big mouth, I said, 'Hm, this writing looks just like yours Pop!'
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mrs. Simpson:	And he didn't say anything.
Ms. Lawrence:	How old were you?
Mrs. Simpson:	I don't know, I don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	I mean a little girl or a teenager?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, small. Enough to be getting, not knowing where your Christmas gifts were coming from at Christmas time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right. But old enough to know to read.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes. And he said, 'Santa Claus don't like little girls who know too much.' (Chuckle) So after that I didn't get anymore written Christmas gifts.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Do you remember how much money was in the envelope?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn, no.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Do you remember some of your favorite toys?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes. When my grandmother had given me a piano.
Ms. Lawrence:	A piano?
Mrs. Simpson:	You know, a little baby piano.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	A little baby piano -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oo.
Mrs. Simpson:	- and I would be plinking on that, not knowing what I was doing. I would be playing on that. That was my favorite toy.
Ms. Lawrence:	Sounds fun.
Mrs. Simpson:	Then I had a big doll. And my granddaddy dropped it and it was made from the stuff that breaks up all the time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Porcelain? Like china?
Mrs. Simpson:	I guess, yeah. And he broke the head on that one, so that was the end of the doll.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! Was that a white or a black doll?
Mrs. Simpson:	White doll. I never saw black dolls until I grew up. But they were all white dolls.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And would you have visitors on Christmas?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah my family, you know, they would come to visit and everything. We'd have food and meat and had a nice time on Christmas.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Did you sing?
Mrs. Simpson:	I guess they sang. I can't sing now so I guess they were singing. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) You were listening. You were plinking on your piano.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. (Chuckle) Plink plink plink. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) That reminds me of other school activities besides studying. What else happened at school, besides kind of, arithmetic, you know, what other things did you learn?
Mrs. Simpson:	I learned a whole lot of stuff in school. But, getting down to it, naming it now -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. I'm thinking of music?
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh music, I didn't learn anything about music at school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Or art?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	No. What about history of African Americans?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, and I'm still working on that. Because, we never were taught anything about African Americans or anything, and the only thing that we could hear was, was ugly and being done, you know, to the African people and all like that but their stuff that they were doing, their achievements that they were making, we never were taught.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. So you only heard about slavery -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	- and maybe, did you hear about Jim Crow?
Mrs. Simpson:	Right.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was it talked about like that?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, all that kind of thing.
Ms. Lawrence:	So nothing about -
Mrs. Simpson:	We knew that, where you all could go, we knew that we couldn't go there. So, that was just about the only thing that we would learn.
Ms. Lawrence:	Me meaning being white.
Mrs. Simpson:	Right, right.
Ms. Lawrence:	Which leads me to questions about segregation. Can you talk about Esmont? You said there were a lot of, only, white-owned stores. Can you talk about white people in Esmont, if you even remember having much contact, or what was your contact with white people in Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	My contact with them was nothing because I never had to be around them or anything. My contact was strictly in Esmont down there in that house. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, that was your social life, your world, yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, right. I never had any contact with other people.
Ms. Lawrence:	What about your grandparents' contact with whites?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well they had, their contact with them, my grandmother would, like these guys coming around selling stuff? She would buy reasonable stuff from them, beautiful stuff, but it wasn't expensive like it is now. And she would, I don't know where she got her money from, but however, she was able to buy all of whatever she had, whatever she bought, from them. My grandfather's contact with them was on the farm and stuff like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. He would sell to them, or buy tools?
Mrs. Simpson:	He'd buy his tools and his grain and everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you talk more about your grandmother and these traveling salespeople? What did she purchase from them?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well whatever they were selling, like dishes or clothing or whatever they were selling, she would buy.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know where they came from?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she ever buy any medicines from them?
Mrs. Simpson:	I presume she did. I know she would buy a lot of liniment.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	That stinky stuff. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) What was that for?
Mrs. Simpson:	For arthritis, they called it arthritis now, but they'd have rheumatism or pains or something. She would buy stuff like that. And then she would buy stuff to make her cakes and everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. Do you remember much about health care in the home and what you did, or your grandparents did, to treat sickness?
Mrs. Simpson:	It's an amazing thing. When I was growing up, we didn't have any sickness around us. Maybe a headache or something like that, a toothache or something like that. But really being sick, I don't remember my family ever being really sick.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's great.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, until, I think my grandmother was in her seventies before she really became sick, and then she passed. My grandfather was in his eighties before he really became sick, and passed. So that's why I, I think about me, I'm in my late eighties. I don't know when I might get sick, and that's the end of it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah. Two more decades I'm sure.
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle) Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, you don't remember a doctor, any doctor?
Mrs. Simpson:	Dr. Early. He was the family doctor. He always came in when, you know, if they had a cold or had pneumonia or something like that. That was just about the biggest sickness that was, if you had a cold or had pneumonia or something like that. Because I remember one time I had pneumonia and Dr. Early attended to me, and my grandmother used to believe in turpentine, giving me turpentine and stuff like that. So she had given me turpentine and when Dr. Early came to see about me he told her whatever she was doing to continue to do it because it was doing a good job.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm. So, you continued taking turpentine?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was that for?
Mrs. Simpson:	Cold.
Ms. Lawrence:	Colds. How much would you take?
Mrs. Simpson:	Just a drop on sugar. A couple of drops on sugar, or something like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh. Uh-huh. So he would come to the house?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh. At that time, all the doctors, well he was the only doctor in this area. He would come to your home and visit you.
Ms. Lawrence:	And he was white?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Where did he live? I'm sorry (having interrupted).
Mrs. Simpson:	In Esmont. In the white section of Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	What were you going to say?
Mrs. Simpson:	No I was going to say that all of the, all of the people were white that did anything. The doctors and everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. Now what about midwives?
Mrs. Simpson:	Midwives? I don't know about that. I think, I think the lady was, she was black. I know the one that was in this area was black, but I can't remember her name.
Ms. Lawrence:	But your grandmother was past her childbearing years -
Mrs. Simpson:	When I was growing up, yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right. But, did you have neighbors who you remember having a midwife at the birth of their children?
Mrs. Simpson:	I know they had children, but I don't know what they had there with them because at that time a child was not told what was going on with women who were giving birth or carrying babies or anything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	They didn't tell you anything.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, when you were growing up you, sounds like you did not get any kind of talk from your grandmother about the facts of life.
Mrs. Simpson:	The facts of life. Sex or anything else. Because, I remember I came down here one time and I was telling her - this was after I had grown up -
Ms. Lawrence:	So when you were an adult returning?
Mrs. Simpson:	Hm?
Ms. Lawrence:	When you were not seventeen, you were coming back from Philadelphia? [Mrs. Simpson later added that she would have been coming from New York, not Philadelphia.]
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes. I mentioned something about someone having a baby and she said, 'Don't talk to me like that. Anybody hear you think I'm not anybody.' I said, 'What do you mean "not anybody", the woman just had a baby!' (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	She thought people would think -
Mrs. Simpson:	That she wasn't a decent person if they heard me talking to her about someone having a baby.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. But anyway. She was a beautiful person.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. So, did she talk to you about other things? I mean, did you have talks - I guess my question is, were you close to her?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, I was close to my grandmother. We talked about whatever she would allow me to talk about. I loved my grandma.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. Do you know how your grandmother might have made her money, that she spend on the traveling salespeople's items?
Mrs. Simpson:	I think by washing for other people and ironing for other people and stuff like that. Because she used to wash and iron for other people, white people. That was the only way she could have made her money.
Ms. Lawrence:	And she was allowed to spend it as she saw fit?
Mrs. Simpson:	Anything she wanted. Yeah, that was her money. She made it. So that's why I can't understand, women now, talking where they work and make their money and the husbands spending it. There ain't no husband going to spend my money when I'm making it! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	I agree! It's a mystery. That's funny. Do you remember what was called, I believe, home demonstration agents? They were part of the Agricultural Extension Service and sometimes they had like canning demonstrations. They, so they were state agents, coming to rural areas. Do you remember anything like that?
Mrs. Simpson:	I used to see people coming in but I didn't know what they were doing because as a child, you weren't allowed to be involved in anything that adults were doing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Really?
Mrs. Simpson:	And most of the time that, when they were involved in anything, they would either send you outside or send you somewhere else because you weren't supposed to be involved in anything any adult would do. At least I wasn't, I don't know about anybody else.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	But I know I wasn't.
Ms. Lawrence:	So were those things that happened, the adult meetings or whatever, did they mostly happen at church or were they sometimes at people's homes?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well if it was something individual it would be at your home. But anything collectively that involved everybody, like they would meet in the schools, or in the church.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm, mm-hm. Or in the church?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	And men and women together?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Um, was the church leadership both men and women, aside from the minister?
Mrs. Simpson:	The church leadership, what do you mean by that?
Ms. Lawrence:	Well I'm getting to the fact that your aunt became a minister much later -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	- and she felt, from her autobiography, this is Reverend Izetta P. Smith for the record -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah but -
Ms. Lawrence:	-- that she couldn't be a minister earlier.
Mrs. Simpson:	Earlier. No, uhn-uhn, only men were allowed to be ministers.
Ms. Lawrence:	How were the women involved in the church, at all?
Mrs. Simpson:	They were deaconesses, they were like secretaries, teachers, all helping young women how to, showing them how to live and what to do. They were teachers, Sunday school teachers and stuff like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	So when they helped the young women out, were those women who were about to get married, so, or, they were newly married, so they needed to know how to run a home?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, these were the younger women growing up into women.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh. Right.
Ms. Lawrence:	So did you ever go to one of those talks?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn (indicates no).
Ms. Lawrence:	Because your grandparents wouldn't let you or you chose not to?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well I didn't have any reason to be there because it didn't include me. I didn't have any reason to be there.
Ms. Lawrence:	But I thought you said you were a church member, and you were at some point a teenager, a girl -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, but we were in Sunday school, we worked through the Sunday school and stuff like that. You know, being in church, you worked through the Sunday school or you were in classes with the women who taught Sunday school and stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. So, who were the kids who got to go to those extra meetings, those special meetings? They didn't have to do as much work?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well there were - I'm being confused because there were no special meetings.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh I thought, I just remember you saying um, 'talks to young girls,' young women, to help them learn how to -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes. Like the deacons, they were, deaconesses, they would talk to young women, but there was no 'special' stuff.
Ms. Lawrence:	It was not special?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn (indicates no).
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay. It was informal?
Mrs. Simpson:	Right.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, okay, okay. All right. Sorry about that. Okay, um, can you, it sounds like you didn't play with your friends in the neighborhood, were you aware of your neighbors, who they were?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah I knew who they were.
Ms. Lawrence:	Could you name a few? Just to -
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh, boy. The Johnsons, which was a big family. Who did I go to school with? The Bankses.
Ms. Lawrence:	Banks?
Mrs. Simpson:	Banks. Chambers. Browns.
Ms. Lawrence:	Browns did you say?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, Browns.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was there a child in the Banks family names Lula?
Mrs. Simpson:	In the Banks family?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Luba?
Ms. Lawrence:	Lula.
Mrs. Simpson:	Lula? I know a Lula Brown.
Ms. Lawrence:	No. I'm thinking from the Yancey collection I told you about, these, all these letters, she was mentioned in it and I wanted to know about her.
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh.
Ms. Lawrence:	Anyways, that's not about you! (Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Let's talk about you some more. Um, let's see. Did neighbors ever visit your home?
Mrs. Simpson:	Oh yeah, they would visit. We would always have visitors come in and my grandmother would have, her main thing to serve was a little wine, and a glass of, a glass of wine about so big, and a slice of cake. That was her dessert.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. Well how nice. So they would come for dessert, specifically, not for dinner?
Mrs. Simpson:	No. If we were having dinner anybody who was hungry could eat.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. So the wine, just for the record, you said about an inch and a half?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, just a little glass of wine.
Ms. Lawrence:	A nice wine glass.
Mrs. Simpson:	The glasses were very small, so that they wouldn't get drunk I guess. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) Right, clearly. But I'm kind of surprised that, you know, that alcohol was allowed in your home.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. Wine and, that was about the most things, a little bit of wine and cake.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Did you make the wine?
Mrs. Simpson:	My grandmother used to make blackberry wine.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, yum.
Mrs. Simpson:	Blackberry wine. One time she made up this blackberry wine and she, somebody came to visit, and she went out to get the jug to, she kept it outside all the time. She went out to get the jug to get them some wine, and somebody had drunk up all the wine and filled the jug up with water. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, wow! (Chuckle) Not even dark purple colored water?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn, uhn-uhn (indicates no).
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh no. Did she ever find out who it was?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she think it might be you?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, she knew it wasn't me because I wasn't drinking wine at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Wow. Did you know the Benjamin Yancey family at all?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. I knew them. But I didn't know about them. Like I said, when you're a young person, you don't know what's going on in the next families, family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm. But I was wondering if you went to school with May or Roger or Benjamin?
Mrs. Simpson:	May and Roger and Benjamin, I think they were in school, or getting ready to get out of school before I went in there. They were older.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. What was the reputation of that family?
Mrs. Simpson:	They were good people as far as I knew. As far as I knew, they were good people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Can you -
Mrs. Simpson:	But they were always trying to build up something, you know, to make the community a better place and all like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Like the school?
Mrs. Simpson:	Hm?
Ms. Lawrence:	Like the school.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, yeah the school. And, because when I started to school, the principal at that time, I've forgotten his name, but anyway, he told my grandmother she should start me to school so I could mingle with the other children and get acquainted with them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Good idea. What other things do you remember the Yancey family doing for the community? Maybe no specific project.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. I can't remember.
Ms. Lawrence:	What about the church doing um, kind of helping people in need whenever they occasionally were in need. Did that happen?
Mrs. Simpson:	I imagine it did, but like I told you, being a child at that time, or even being a younger person at that time, you didn't know what the aged people were doing.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you didn't overhear conversation much. It sounds like you were, maybe even you said, sent out of the house when adults were around.
Mrs. Simpson:	Right, right. When anything important like that was coming up, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know anything about it. Not like children today. They sit right with the parents and hear everything that's going on, whether it's good or bad. But at that time I wasn't allowed to do that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Okay, okay. Um, about the whites in Esmont being in a different area. I believe they were, weren't they in the lower part, in 'the Bottom?'
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah we called that 'the Bottom.'
Ms. Lawrence:	Would you ever go to the stores by yourself?
Mrs. Simpson:	Not by myself because it was too far to walk, you know, at that time. But um, I used to go to, there was a person there who ran the store, what was his name, for Pete's sake, and he didn't care whether you were black, white, pink or blue, whoever came there first that was who got waited on. Because there was a policy, if a white person was there, and a black person was there first, and this white person came in, the black person had to wait until they waited on the white person.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, right.
Mrs. Simpson:	So, but he didn't do that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow!
Mrs. Simpson:	He, if you were there first, you got waited on. And when he finished with you, then he would wait on the other person. Which it should have been -
Ms. Lawrence:	Of course.
Mrs. Simpson:	- but that wasn't the policy then. And there was a lady, this particular time I remember, I was in the store, and I don't know why I remember that, but she came in and said, told him she wanted a pound of 'nigger toes.'
Ms. Lawrence:	Of what?
Mrs. Simpson:	'Nigger toes.'
Ms. Lawrence:	'Nigger toes?'
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	What were those?
Mrs. Simpson:	So he told her that he didn't have any 'nigger toes,' he didn't know what that was, but he had um, what's this nuts, not Brazil nuts -
Ms. Lawrence:	Hazelnuts, walnuts, pecans, pistachios, chestnuts -
Mrs. Simpson:	It was another nut, he told her he didn't have any 'nigger toes' but he had that nut and she could have some of them if she wanted to.
Ms. Lawrence:	And you were there?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, I was in the store at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	What did she say to him?
Mrs. Simpson:	When he told her that? Well, she didn't want what he was telling her he had, she wanted 'nigger toes.' I imagine she was saying that because I was there. I don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah.
	(Tape, side one, ends)
Mrs. Simpson:	So, (Inaudible) spoken up about black people.
Ms. Lawrence:	In a bad way.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. So this man, I'm trying to remember from other interviews names, there was the Thomas store, Steed, I'm just trying to help jog your memory of who this man was. Who else? Brown came later I guess.
Mrs. Simpson:	No Brown is there now. But this was, this was way back there in 19-something or other.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	And he has long been dead.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Were you allowed to try in clothes at the white stores in Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	No. Of course I didn't have to because of the fact my mother supplied me with clothes, and I didn't have to.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay. But other, other people -
Mrs. Simpson:	I understand that other people weren't allowed to try on anything, not even a hat.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Speaking of all of this, um, were you told by your grandparents of certain places to avoid in Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	No. No. Because if they didn't go there, they didn't see any reason why I should go there, you know. There was no place.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, okay, mm-hm, okay. Um, could you discuss any - and I know I keep talking about things and you say, 'well, young people just didn't, weren't aware, but perhaps there's, you know, at least names of organizations you might have overheard - political activity in Esmont? When you were growing up, was there anything, or even a farmers' union or a, um, women's club or anything like that that you remember? And that's okay if you don't.
Mrs. Simpson:	I know my grandmother was in an organization with women, but I can't remember the name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Was it Household of Ruth?
Mrs. Simpson:	It could have been.
Ms. Lawrence:	There, I know that was in Esmont at that time.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes, she could have been, that could have been the one. I don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	Way before my time. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckle) So, when you, you went to Scottsville that one time with the other schoolchildren. Did you go after that first time, did you go at all to - I mean, did I say Esmont, Scottsville?
Mrs. Simpson:	Scottsville? No, I don't think I went to Scottsville any more until I was grown, and then I was on my own.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, okay, okay. What was the main source of news in your household? Did you have any kind of newspaper?
Mrs. Simpson:	We had the news. My mother, grandmother would buy magazines, she was a reader, and she would buy the newspaper everyday. She would buy magazines and she would keep me in picture books and buy all kind of books and stuff so that I would have an understanding. And, sometimes when I'm traveling, going to Charlottesville, I look at the mountainside, and I can still see some of the picture books in my mind that she had bought when I was growing up.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, yeah. Isn't that something? So, the picture books reflected the local area? So they were local?
Mrs. Simpson:	Right, right, right, uh-huh. Yes, she was a great believer in reading and writing. And installed that in me, that I should always read and write.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Did your grandfather read and write as well?
Mrs. Simpson:	Not as well, but he did read and write, but not as well. They were from, both of them were from the Indian tribe. She was from the, she was from the Blackhawk, and he was from the, something starting with a 'C' I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	Cherokee, Chappaqua. . .
Mrs. Simpson:	No, Cherokee.
Ms. Lawrence:	Cherokee? Okay. So your mother was Indian, and then -
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, she was Indian, and my father, they said he was Puerto Rican but I don't know what he was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	I don't even remember what he looked like.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Do you have any pictures of him?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	No? How old was your mom when she had you, roughly?
Mrs. Simpson:	I think she was in her teens. I don't know, seventeen, eighteen, or something like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And was your sister who disappeared -
Mrs. Simpson:	Younger.
Ms. Lawrence:	Younger, okay. So she married your father, I mean, around that time.
Mrs. Simpson:	When she was in her teens.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Now, this is rather personal so feel free not to answer, but I'm wondering if you know why she brought you down here to live with your grandparents?
Mrs. Simpson:	Because of the fact that she could not work and take care of me at the same time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	So she wanted me to be with my grandparents so that she could continue to work. She had a lady who kept me, you know, babysat me, but they were telling her that she shouldn't allow that because they said the lady had tuberculosis or something.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And, so she brought me to her mother and father.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. What did she do? What was her employment?
Mrs. Simpson:	Who?
Ms. Lawrence:	Your mom.
Mrs. Simpson:	Housework. Cleaning other folks' houses.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right. Um, what else here. Did you ever have catalogues in the home?
Mrs. Simpson:	Have what?
Ms. Lawrence:	Your grandmother, did she order catalogues?
Mrs. Simpson:	Catalogues?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, catalogues and magazines and books and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you name some of them?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Not even the magazines?
Mrs. Simpson:	Not from way back then.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. How about the daily newspaper?
Mrs. Simpson:	She had a daily newspaper. I don't know if it's the same one that's out now or not.
Ms. Lawrence:	From Charlottesville?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm. But, it may have been, it may be the same one, I don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. And do you remember either The Crisis or The Defender? Those newspapers?
Mrs. Simpson:	(Indicates no)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Because those I know got into the rural South more, they were kind of national papers, black papers, so I was just wondering.
Mrs. Simpson:	No, we didn't have any black papers. We had only the papers that were published at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	Um -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay I'm just going to ask, in Phila - I guess you lived in Philadelphia for how long?
Mrs. Simpson:	No we lived in Philadelphia until my mother moved to Harlem. That was the black area, you know, in Harlem.
Ms. Lawrence:	When was that?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well, she was living in Harlem when I went back to live with her, so I don't know if, whether she moved there, or when she brought me from Philadelphia or what. But I know she was living in Harlem when I went back to live with her.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, so when you were seventeen, eighteen, you went to Harlem, not back to Philadelphia?
Mrs. Simpson:	When I was, yeah, when I was seventeen and eighteen, I went back to Harlem.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And we lived in Harlem until I got married in, I think it was '43 or something like that. Then we moved to Brooklyn. And that's where we lived, in Brooklyn, before we moved down here.
Ms. Lawrence:	And when was that?
Mrs. Simpson:	When we moved here?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mrs. Simpson:	In '70, what, '69.
Ms. Lawrence:	And what was your husband's name?
Mrs. Simpson:	Homer Simpson.
Ms. Lawrence:	Homer Simpson, okay. Um, all right. Well, do you have any uh, anything else you want to add? Any things that don't fit into the questions that I've asked?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	Big stories? Big events that happened in the community? Any fire, any episode?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, nothing that is going to upset anybody. Or not upset anybody, but I haven't had anything like that to happen.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. Was there any crime that you remember?
Mrs. Simpson:	The only thing that did take my attention was the big, the flood that they had that time, when was the flood?
Ms. Lawrence:	I don't know.
Mrs. Simpson:	In seventy -. We hadn't been here but so long. But that wasn't in Esmont though. That wasn't in Esmont. That wasn't Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	Just a lot of rain at that time. But it wasn't a flood.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh. That was when you came back, so in the seventies?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Was there crime when you were a girl, growing up here, do you remember crime, um, you know, I don't think there was a police station here, is that correct?
Mrs. Simpson:	If there were I don't know anything about it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, I don't think so.
Mrs. Simpson:	No, you never heard of anybody getting into a whole lot of stuff like they're getting into now.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Because you could almost tell, in fact my people, my grandfather would always tell you who not to hang around with, or who not to, who to be with or not to be with.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Because he was out there all of the time and he knew, you know, he would know the people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	So, there wasn't a whole, in fact there wasn't a whole lot of crime going on then I don't guess. If it did I didn't know anything about it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. Just the wine off the back porch. (Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, how about that? (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you hear about, you probably didn't but, house parties?
Mrs. Simpson:	House parties?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Do you remember hearing about those? Or any kind of party?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah I've heard about a whole lot of parties going on, but there was no party going on where I was living.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mrs. Simpson:	My Grandpop wasn't going to have that.
Ms. Lawrence:	And they didn't go?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uhn-uhn, uhn-uhn. (indicates no)
Ms. Lawrence:	No. So was, that was kind of considered like the dancing?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. No dancing around here.
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you describe for me your dancing? Was it like, you know, square-dancing or just by yourself moving or?
Mrs. Simpson:	Well at that time, being a child, it was mostly me at home just keeping time to the music.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. So where'd you hear the music?
Mrs. Simpson:	We had a radio.
Ms. Lawrence:	You had a radio, oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And when we got to the point where we could get television, oh that was later in life, but when we got to the point where we could get television, I was working then and I bought a television, the first television my mother had. That was after I went to work.
Ms. Lawrence:	Your mother or your grandmother?
Mrs. Simpson:	My mother.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah.
Mrs. Simpson:	No, my grandmother, there was no such thing as a television. She wouldn't even know what we were talking about if she came in now.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	Television? What are you talking about?
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, hm. Did you ever hear of a traveling circus?
Mrs. Simpson:	Circus? Yeah I heard of it but I didn't know what it consisted of.
Ms. Lawrence:	But did it come to Esmont?
Mrs. Simpson:	I don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. But you somehow heard of one?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	So any other stories of you as a child and doing things your grandparents weren't supposed to know about? (Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle) No, I was a very good child.
Ms. Lawrence:	I'm sure you were.
Mrs. Simpson:	Best child in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah! Well that's a claim to fame! (Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	They certainly raised you to be confident. (Chuckle)
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle) No, I, just kidding. No, I have nothing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. Well, if you do have more, we will certainly fit it in. Thank you so much for sharing all of this.
Mrs. Simpson:	You're welcome.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh I have another question, oh I do have one more! What prompted this was um, Mr. Jordan told me about your Aunt. And do you remember much about the Reverend Izetta Smith?
Mrs. Simpson:	Aunt Zett?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	I should remember all about Aunt Zett because I was a child growing up under Aunt Zett.
Ms. Lawrence:	What do you mean 'under her?'
Mrs. Simpson:	You know, growing up when she was living here?
Ms. Lawrence:	She was living in your grandparents' house as well?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah okay.
Mrs. Simpson:	And I grew up and, you know, she was like, I guess like a sister I guess, to me, or something like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	And everywhere she went I wanted to go, I don't care where she was going, I wanted to go, whether she wanted me to go or not, I still wanted to go.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mrs. Simpson:	And then when she um, got to the point where she moved, oh, I think she went from, I don't know whether she went teaching or where she went, but she left our home and was going somewhere and I remember I cried all day because Aunt Zett was gone somewhere.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, mm-hm. How much older was she?
Mrs. Simpson:	Ten? I'm 89. She was, yeah she was about ten or twelve or something like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Years older?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	So did, was she the youngest of their children?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, she was their last child.
Ms. Lawrence:	So you, there were not other aunts and uncles?
Mrs. Simpson:	No, nobody.
Ms. Lawrence:	Just her. Oh so you had her around for at least a few years?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah. I missed her when she left, that left me all by myself.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mrs. Simpson:	And I do remember when they came to, after we had ate in the evening, after we had eaten and everything, it came to washing dishes, I always had to go to the bathroom. I'd tell her, 'I'll help you as soon as I come back.' And I made sure I stayed out there until she finished the dishes. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) You little imp!
Mrs. Simpson:	And then after she finished the dishes I'd come, 'Oh, I, oh you finished! I was going to help you!'
Ms. Lawrence:	What did she think about that?
Mrs. Simpson:	She knew me. She knew me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. That's sweet of her.
Mrs. Simpson:	But she would just go ahead on and finish the dishes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, ah. How many rooms were in that house, that you grew up in?
Mrs. Simpson:	Let's see. Two upstairs, two, four. And a bedroom, we called the kitchen a room, and then two upstairs, two rooms upstairs.
Ms. Lawrence:	So, you had your own room?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yeah, I had a room upstairs. Until, when I was real young and got sick, my grandmother had me down in her bedroom.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh. When you had pneumonia?
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh, so she could look after me.
Ms. Lawrence:	And then there was a privy outside?
Mrs. Simpson:	Outside. We, you had to go outside to go to it. In the inside, at night, you had a little pot.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. What else was on the farm? Did you have other buildings on the farm? Like a barn?
Mrs. Simpson:	Yes he had a barn, and he had a pen for his horse.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mrs. Simpson:	Old Banna (Phonetically). Of course the pigs ran up, ran around on the outside. The chickens ran around on the outside. In the Fall, when he'd be taking stuff in, he would dig like a hole in the ground and put the vegetables and things in this hole to keep, and they would keep for the winter.
Ms. Lawrence:	Really? 'Cause it was so cold in the ground?
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mrs. Simpson:	The temperature there was enough, you could go out anytime and get a cabbage or fruit or something.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. Wow, it must have been a deep hole.
Mrs. Simpson:	Uh-huh, it was. Boy, all the stuff I thought I had forgot!
Ms. Lawrence:	I know, isn't it amazing? Your memory is just amazing though, gosh. I'll be lucky if I remember a tenth of what you remember when I'm your age.
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle) Well, some of the times you're thinking on the stuff that you want to remember you can't remember anything. Like right now. I need something right now. Where in the world did I put it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh right, like your keys.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh my god, I know. That's not an age-related thing, I think that's a -
Mrs. Simpson:	Everything.
Ms. Lawrence:	-- 'you're mind's too cluttered with stuff' -
Mrs. Simpson:	(Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	One more question - Jeanes teachers - and I promise this is the last question, it just occurred to me. Jeanes teachers were special teachers who were sent down - they were black teachers - sent into rural areas in the South at about this time and there weren't that many of them, so I'm just wondering if you remember that word at all.
Mrs. Simpson:	Jeanes?
Ms. Lawrence:	Jeanes. A Jeanes teacher.
Mrs. Simpson:	(indicates no)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Very simple question. Okay, anything else?
Mrs. Simpson:	No.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was your favorite food growing up? Oh I promised you that was the last question! (Laughter) Forget it.
Mrs. Simpson:	(Laughter) My favorite growing up is my favorite food now. You may not call it food. Ice cream.
Ms. Lawrence:	I know!
Mrs. Simpson:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh I'm with ya! There we go. Especially when your grandmother makes such good ice cream.
Mrs. Simpson:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Well, I'm going to end the tape and thank you so very much.
Mrs. Simpson:	Okay. And thank you.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
	(Interview over)
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of Kathryn Simpson on August 2, 2002, by Sarah Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)