Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of James Jordan on October 10 and October 30, 2001, by Sarah R. Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)
Biographical Information James Jordan was born in Esmont, the tenth of twelve children, and except for a brief stint in Los Angeles and his army experience, has lived there all his life. He shares some memories and stories about his grandparents, conveys the affectionate nature of his parents' marriage, and details their various work experiences, particularly the challenge of long distance employment for both and the occasion when his mother stood up to her white employer over the timeliness of her paycheck. Jordan recalls in much detail his daily life and chores growing up. He also tells of Buster (Albert) Scott, the local baseball player who was extremely talented and known into neighboring counties. Jordan describes the difficulties he faced in transferring from the Esmont school to the Burley school in Charlottesville. He relates the story of how he decided to join the military at 17 and how during his four years there he found "soul brothers. . . in a white skin!" Jordan was the first African American to be offered a salesperson job at Sears Roebuck in Charlottesville, but he refused it, preferring to continue working in shipping and receiving. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. Brackets have been used to indicate additions made to the text upon review by the interviewee. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Ms. Lawrence:	This is Sarah Lawrence interviewing Mr. James Jordan, at his home on October 10, 2001, in Esmont. Good afternoon.
Mr. Jordan:	Good afternoon.
Ms. Lawrence:	Would you state for the record your full name please?
Mr. Jordan:	My name is James Elliott Jordan.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay is that two "l"s two "t"s?
Mr. Jordan:	Exactly.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Uh, and where were you born?
Mr. Jordan:	I was born right here in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Uh, what were your parents' names, and then your grandparents' names, full names?
Mr. Jordan:	Okay. My mother's name was Rebecca Dorothy Monroe (upon reviewing transcript Mr. Jordan wanted to clarify that his mother's full name was Rebecca Dorothy Monroe Jordan)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? My father's name was General Washington Jordan.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay.
Ms. Lawrence:	General was his name?
Mr. Jordan:	That's his name. Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know how he got the name?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't. (Chuckle) But that's his real name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, my mother's mother's name was Martha Agee Monroe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay. And her, her father's name was Bristol Garland Monroe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Now, I think when you and I talked before I told you there, there's some confusion with respect to his name. Uh, I saw it on his tombstone as "Brister," like B.R.I.S.T.E.R.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But uh, my brother supposedly is named after him, one of my brothers who is deceased, and his name is spelled B.R.I.S.T.O.L.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, my grandfather also had a son by that same name, Bristol. And it's my understanding his name is spelled exactly like my brother's. So, but but they supposedly are named after him.
Ms. Lawrence:	So the engraver goofed?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, no I don't, I don't think so.
Ms. Lawrence:	No? Huh.
Mr. Jordan:	I think that there may -- uh, that's been many years ago, and of course people at that time, African American people, weren't educated and they spelled a lot of things exactly like it sounds.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	It might have been intended to be Bristol but that's how it sounded and so that's how they spelled it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Right, right, all right.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, but anyway, my mother's, I mean my father's family is uh, not quite as clear to me as my mother's. I believe that my father's mother's name was Mary Jordan.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And um, it's my understanding that his mother and father were not married.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay, so, I won't go into the name of his father, but I do know who supposedly is his father.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? And he looks a lot like him so I think he is his father. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	But that was something you didn't talk about?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, we did, but sort of, like, among ourselves.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes. Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Because, this man had uh, another family, and uh, they kind of, some were real nice to us and claimed us, and others seemed to, felt they were better.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so -
Ms. Lawrence:	So they were local?
Mr. Jordan:	They were local, yes. But but some of them were very very very kind to us. They called us coz (Phonetically) and all of that. Um. I'm not sure that I would want you to print this but I'll just tell you -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	- that uh, it's my understanding -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you want to, do you want to pause it, so -?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, do that. Yeah, go ahead and pause it for a minute.
Ms. Lawrence:	So it doesn't go on -
	(Paused tape for a few minutes)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Where were your parents born?
Mr. Jordan:	Okay, to the best of my knowledge, my mom was born in what they called the Glendower area.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Glendower is is kind of like, uh, I guess it's a part of Keene.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay. And uh, her mother and father had, I would say, in the neighborhood of maybe eight to ten kids, I'm just not sure how many.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And mom was the oldest. At least the oldest who lived. I did hear at one time that there might have been one before her who might have been stillborn, or something, you know, but she was the oldest one who lived.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And um, that was as I said in the Glendower area. My dad (Clearing of throat) was born and reared in an area called Sand Road.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And all of, both of those places are within uh, five miles of Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Sand Road.
Mr. Jordan:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Lawrence:	And your grandparents? Do you know?
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, now where they were born I don't know. The only knowledge of my dad's mother and father was that they were in that Sand Road area. And my mother's mother and father were right there in that Glendower area.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And I think I shared with you earlier that my mother's father was uh, he did quite well.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	He really did. He lived quite well. And largely because he owned a lot of land -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and he had various farm animals, and of course he farmed the land. And he also worked outside of the home -
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm. What did he do?
Mr. Jordan:	- and -. The only knowledge I have of what he worked was I believe that one time he worked for the slate quarry. What he did there I just don't know. And that may not be true but I think that's correct.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And like I said, he had a large, a pretty vast place down there. And that was way back in the woods. And so at some point, I don't know when this happened or why this happened, but uh, he still retained possession, ownership of that land down in the woods, but at some point he built the house up on the road, they called it. That house was like, more than a mile back in the woods. There were only, to my knowledge, two other families back there.
Ms. Lawrence:	So did he sell that house that was still back there on the land?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't think he did.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	I don't think he did. I mean I think he he kept all of that, and I don't know whether he continued to farm all it or what, but but for maybe the sake of convenience they they moved up on the road.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know what address it was?
Mr. Jordan:	No, no.
Ms. Lawrence:	Or, was it near, near the central part of Esmont?
Mr. Jordan:	(Cough) Well, it's, I know exactly where the place is. It's within, uh, I'd say a mile of where we are now.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	The house is still standing, the one up on the road is. And uh, he had a store there, just a small store. And I shared with you before that I thought it was interesting that my mother said my dad was a really really, he was, he was a man who kind of stayed to himself, he didn't mingle a lot with the public, but he still had a genuine concern for others, you know? And uh, I heard my mother tell the story that when he was getting ready to go to work he would tell his wife, my mother's mother, my grandmother, he would tell her that if any of the elderly people came by, and and wanted anything from the store, and didn't have the money, to go ahead and let 'em have it. And just, you know, on faith that they would, uh, pay it at a later date, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And, and I thought that was good. And I also told you that my mom said that she thinks that I'm a lot like him, and and (Chuckling) I find that kind of strange because I never knew him you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	He died before I was born.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, he uh, it's it's interesting also that he owned a store, and at one time, two fellows in the community and I owned a store -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- right down the road here. You know? And my mother said that my grandfather was very particular about his place, you know, and how he maintained it and so forth and (Laughing) she always thought that I was the same way. And I guess to some degree -
Ms. Lawrence:	A neat-freak!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) That's right, a neat-freak! Betty's laughing (refers to his wife who is present) because she knows that.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughing) That's a good thing for her though!
Mr. Jordan:	But but, it's strange how you can be like somebody -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. That's great.
Mr. Jordan:	- that you didn't even know, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	And what about, let's see, that was your mother's parents?
Mr. Jordan:	That's right.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh, what did your mom's mom do? Probably took care of the children, or?
Mr. Jordan:	I never heard any reference to the fact that my grandmother worked outside the home. Now she might have. But having had a very large family, and then uh, my grandfather was the one who I think just, he was the real breadwinner.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, and I just, if she worked outside the home, I don't know anything about it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. And your father's parents?
Mr. Jordan:	Now, I don't know anything about uh, you know, what their means of income was or anything like that. My grandfather, he was a very impressive man. He came around - even a horse, even owning a horse at that time, at the time when my dad was coming up, you know that was a pretty big thing. It's like owning a car today.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so uh, my grandfather always, whenever he showed up at our house, he always came on this real nice horse and he would have on, like, riding boots, and he was really dressed for it, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	He was just an impressive man I thought. And what he did I don't know, because like I said, it was kind of hush-hush about -
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right.
Mr. Jordan:	You know. And so we didn't ask a lot of questions about it. But uh, and my dad's mom, I just don't know now. I believe that she might have died at a fairly young age. Not, not young young, but maybe, I'm guessing, maybe like in her thirties or something like that? I'm guessing.
Ms. Lawrence:	So she raised your dad and his siblings -
Mr. Jordan:	Well, what really happened was my dad was the oldest, just like my mom, he was the oldest in his family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And it's my understanding that dad really didn't get farther than a third grade education before he had to go to work.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Can you imagine, having to go to work, at the age of, what, less than ten years old?
Ms. Lawrence:	Eight, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah you see what I'm saying? But he had to, it's my understanding that he had to go to work in order to help support the family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, like I said, what his mom did, now, I, I really don't know. I don't think I ever heard him talk a lot about that.
Ms. Lawrence:	So let's move down then to your parents and what they did.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah. Well, my, I'll start with my dad. My dad was a very very hardworking man. My dad and mom had twelve children. Eight boys and four girls. And uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	When did you come in?
Mr. Jordan:	Well I was actually child number ten (Chuckle), okay? There are two younger than I.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, but anyway, my dad, I'm trying to think back, when I first remember, the first job I remember my dad having, now, he did a lot of - I'm going to tell you a little back farther than that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	I remember, just faintly, when - I was, I was born - I don't want to really tell you my age, but I was born (Chuckle) like during the uh, Depression years I believe -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	I'm not sure what, what those years were but anyhow, it was really really hard times.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now imagine this. My dad and some other men in this community - jobs were so scarce -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- in this area for African American men anyway -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- they worked in Arlington. Arlington, Virginia.
Ms. Lawrence:	How did they get there?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, there was one man in the community, to the best of my knowledge now, who did the driving.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? This man owned the store here. And uh, I don't -
Ms. Lawrence:	Which store was it?
Mr. Jordan:	Is it necessary for me to call their names?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh, it's valuable. It'd be fine -
Mr. Jordan:	Well, let me put it to you like this. Now some of this might need to be uh, verified by family members.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay, I'm telling you what I think.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, great.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay, I think Mr. Freddy Thomas, Mr. Freddy Thomas, was the driver.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay. He had a car, okay. A car was a great luxury.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Back in those days. And Dad didn't have one, okay? But work as I said was obviously so scarce, that when word came, and I don't know how they received this word, that hiring, they were hiring in Arlington, they took the job.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And they had to drive there, and stay there -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- they only came home on the weekends and I'm not sure they came every weekend.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, right.
Mr. Jordan:	I'm not sure they came home every weekend.
Ms. Lawrence:	Probably working long hours too.
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah. So anyway, and this was at the uh, now, what kind of military facilities in Arlington, what's there - they worked at Fort Meyer, that's what it was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Fort Meyer. I, that's supposedly -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know what they did?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't know. I, it was probably uh, like custodial work and stuff like that, maybe it -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know if that was a WPA project, did that ring a bell?
Mr. Jordan:	Now it could have very, WPA sounds familiar, it could have very well been that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway, that's the first job, I think, I can remember my dad having. Now, where he worked before that I just don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But uh, it was, uh, we, it, it was very heart-warming for me and my kid brother and kid sister. Now as I said there were two under me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	When Daddy would come home, you know, when he would come - but now really, I don't remember ever missing him when he wasn't there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But he was always great when we saw him.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying? I mean, I think Mom just took excellent care of us -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know, and we didn't really have time or even, we we didn't worry about our Dad -
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know what I'm saying? But -
Ms. Lawrence:	Did he ever send you word, of, of his, how he was doing, when he was coming?
Mr. Jordan:	Now see, not, he wouldn't probably, wouldn't have communicated with us, we were very young kids, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But Mom probably always knew when he was going to come. Now, we didn't have a telephone at that time, so he must have written, or must have told her, maybe when he would leave, I think he would leave like on Sunday night, going back, so that they could be there for Monday morning and you know go to work.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And he probably told her at that time, when he would be back. But when he would walk in that door, he would almost always have something in a bag for the kids.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying? And it might be uh, just a little, almost like a, I'll say a little crackerjack toy, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	Or maybe some candy -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- you didn't get candy every day back then, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, right.
Mr. Jordan:	And so, when when when we knew Daddy was coming, my goodness, we were just as happy as (Laughter) as we can be!
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway, he worked there and the very next job that I knew of that Daddy had was Dad worked for the slate quarry which was located in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay. And I can recall so well that Dad used to, well, Dad used to leave fairly early in the morning to get there, and maybe, I'm thinking more of the winter months.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, when it was still dark inside.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, he and several other men in the community walked to work.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now this was like, uh, what would you say it is, about a half a mile or more down there to the bottom? About, I guess it was a half a mile. And rain or shine, it didn't matter.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	They went.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And we would hear, we were just youngsters, we, at this time, would not have been out of bed but probably awake.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And we would hear some of the other men coming up the road talking, you know, they'd be talking kind of loud, the road was kind of close to the house -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And they would call for my Dad if he wasn't outside, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, Jethro, whatever they called him you know? And, and then by that time Mom, if he didn't hear, Mom would say, you know, Joe Brown is out there, or whoever it was that was coming up the road.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so Dad would go out, you know, and we would always (Laughter), we would, we would be laughing, look, we was young kids, we were in the bedroom, over top of the kitchen, but we could always hear Dad and Mom kiss! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Ahh! (Laughter)
Mrs. Jordan:	(Laughter) Excuses. (Inaudible) I've got to go (Inaudible) -
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) Before he left for (Inaudible) and uh, he would always kiss her, you know, kind of a loud kiss -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh!
Mr. Jordan:	- you know. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	My goodness!
Mr. Jordan:	And then she would say, "Don't forget your lunch bucket" and "Have you got your coat?" and all of this you know, and so he would leave the house and go out there and join those men and then they would walk, this was down on the other end of Esmont, and so they would walk up to the crossroad where they would meet other men coming from up this way -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mmm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and they would all walk down and work together.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. How many do you think?
Mr. Jordan:	I'm guessing, let's see, that would be Dad, Mr. Barnforth, uh Mr. Johnny White, Mr. Joe Brown, uh, I would say, that's that's four there, but I would say between four and seven, maybe (Chuckle) altogether -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know. Because uh, there were, there were other men, and I just can't remember at this time who they were. But they would all walk, you know, down there to the quarry. And uh, when they would come back, my goodness, my Dad was covered with quarry dust -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- I mean, his hair, his clothes, his face, it was all over him.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	You know? It's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And then to think, now, Dad would come back home, and before he even had a chance to bathe or to eat his dinner or anything, he would go out and get uh, firewood in, if enough wasn't in there -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know, we had chores, don't misunderstand me, we had to do a lot of that, but he would always, maybe he would go out and close up the chickenhouse -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and uh, just do various things. Dad would, Dad would busy himself outside doing things until dark again.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying. Especially in the wintertime.
Ms. Lawrence:	A long day.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah. And so uh, then he would come in, you know, and wash up and have his dinner, and it wasn't long at all before Dad would uh, you know, he'd be in bed and we used to love to, when Daddy would go to bed, Daddy would turn the radio on.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm?
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, he had a couple of real favorite stations he listened to, like WCKY, which was a hillbilly station! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh!
Mr. Jordan:	Country and Western station out in Cinncinnati, Ohio. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Oh wow!
Mr. Jordan:	He listened to that WCKY, and uh, WLAC out of Nashville, Tennessee -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- played good rock 'n roll music, you know -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- and Daddy loved that too, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And, amazingly, look, Daddy never had, I never ever can remember Daddy having an alarm clock.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	He would take his watch off, it was a pocketwatch with a long chain on it, he would take that out of his pocket and hang it on a nail by the bed -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- and he, I never remember him being late!
Ms. Lawrence:	The internal clock!
Mr. Jordan:	I'm not kidding you!
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	He wasn't late.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's so weird.
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway, look, Dad worked there, and for many many years, and then the quarry closed down.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	I mean, that was a big shock to Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	When they announced that the quarry was going to be closed.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know when that was?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't know the year, but he was there a long time before it closed down. When it closed, they were given the option to go to the quarry in Buckingham.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	And Daddy went there for a while. Now, by this time, he might have had his own car.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm. Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? I believe he did have his own car. But anyway, he drove to Buckingham for a while.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And that just, that commuting was just too much, I mean because that was, that thing was in Arvonia I believe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	Which is a good ways down in Buckingham County.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	So, anyway, Dad did that for a while, and then after that, I believe he went to work for the uh, it was called the Blue Ridge Sanatorium at that time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	In Charlottesville. And uh, he might have had between time a construction job here and there, but he was, he was never, I never remember him being out of a job.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, I believe that he retired from there. But when he retired, he was like seventy-three years old.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Seventy-three.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, he had had two or three heart attacks, and other things.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. Did he have funny stories about the Sanatorium?
Mr. Jordan:	Uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	Or did he share much with you about that?
Mr. Jordan:	Not to my knowledge. Not to my knowledge. I mean, I I don't think it was his favorite place to work, you know, because, it was kind of like custodial work that he was doing. But uh, Daddy was kind of a hands-on person, you know, for for something a little more skillful than that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, but whatever he did, he did it from his heart.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, and uh, he was always a good worker. I don't know if he was ever fired from a job.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	My Mom, uh, now, my mom was a schoolteacher before I was, well maybe, maybe not before I was born, but at least I don't ever remember her being in a classroom.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	But there are a lot of people, there used to be a lot of people in Esmont, and the surrounding area, who used to say my mom taught them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And she didn't teach in Esmont. She taught at a school over in uh, where is that school, in the Mount Alto area. Mount Alto, A.L.T.O.
Mrs. Jordan:	Over in Howardsville.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, in the, yeah okay Howardsville, but it's really called Mount Alto, that area is.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, she taught there. Now, don't ask me how she got to the school, what means of transportation, I don't know any of that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	But people in this area remembered having her as a teacher.
Mr. Jordan:	That's right. And it was like a one-room school. But uh, people who, I believe she also taught at a school that's in the area of uh, what's Frank Boley's church, honey?
Mrs. Jordan:	Oak Ridge.
Mr. Jordan:	Oak Ridge Baptist Church in Schuyler. She taught in that area too I believe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm. Schuyler, is that S.C.H. -?
Mr. Jordan:	S.C.H.U.Y.L.E.R. Yeah, uh-huh, yeah, in that area, in the Schuyler area. And so how many years she taught or anything, I just don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now I think, I know I've heard reference to the fact that when Mom finished school, uh, her dad and mom sent her to school in Manassass. Okay? How she got there, you know, and what kind of school it was, or it could been like a, what did they call it at that time, like a Training School or something like that?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Where she learned, she wasn't in an actual college, but she, she was taught the, you know, whatever was necessary for her to teach school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And she received her certificate and everything, and she was able to teach, you know. Now, like I said, how long she taught, I just don't know. Her teaching might have been before she met Dad -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And I think I told you this before, that it's my understanding that Dad, having gone no farther than the third grade, really couldn't read well -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mmm.
Mr. Jordan:	- or write, when he and mom were married. And amazingly, Mom taught him so much.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mmm.
Mr. Jordan:	And Dad, I'll tell you what. When I was in the military, I used to write back and forth, I used to write individual letters to my dad and to my mom.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And Dad, it's a wonder that I don't have some of those letters now -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mr. Jordan:	- that he wrote, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And he could, I think Dad could write better than I!
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) I never could write well. But anyway, Mom, Mom taught school, and then, I think that might have been before she and Daddy married.
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know when they married? How old they were?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't know how old they were. Look, they were born, they were both born in 1901.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And they married in I believe 1923 or '24, I think it might have been '24.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? So that tells you, you know, they were either twenty-three or twenty-four years old. I said -
Ms. Lawrence:	So after, after she got married -
Mr. Jordan:	After she got married, I'm not sure that she taught after she got married. But anyway, Dad like I say, was, you know, the the main breadwinner in the house, and, I'm trying to think, where else did Mom work other than for the Van Cliefs, do you, can you think of any place else? (Addressing Mrs. Jordan) I really can't.
Ms. Lawrence:	Who were the Van Cliefs?
Mr. Jordan:	The Van Cliefs was a very wealthy family, and some of the young, some of the boys from that family are still living in the area, but they were a very wealthy family in the area, they employed a lot of people here, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And they -
Ms. Lawrence:	Were they white or black?
Mr. Jordan:	White.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah. And uh, the Van Cliefs owned Mydrie Farms up there, Old Woodville, I don't know if you've seen any of those signs?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah actually, yeah. Mydrie, what was that called, the first you mentioned?
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, what was it called? Mydrie, Mydrie, it's spelled M.Y.D.R.I.E. Mydrie.
Ms. Lawrence:	R.I.E. Okay, and how do spell their name, the Clief part?
Mr. Jordan:	All right, it's Van, it's two words, it's capital V.A.N., capital C.L.I.E.F.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, thanks.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh-huh, yeah, Van Clief. And they they employed a lot of people from this area. And so my mom went to work for them, and uh (Chuckling), I'm laughing because she was a pretty tough woman.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughing)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) You know! She didn't like a lot of foolishness.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right!
Mr. Jordan:	And so -
Ms. Lawrence:	How was she tough?
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) Well, yes, she was really tough. I laugh, a buddy of mine, I got to tell you this on tape or not, but a buddy of mine told me the other day, he said that uh, Mom (Has trouble getting the word out because he is laughing so hard), one payday they hadn't gotten paid, and she, he said Mom went to Mr. Van Clief and said, uh, "Mr. Van Clief, did the train not come? That's bringing the checks?"
Mr. Jordan and Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	And so Mr. Van Clief fired her, but he hired her back the next day. (Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! Okay! Uh-huh, oh that's great. (Laughing)
Mr. Jordan:	She, she was pretty tough. The others were probably standing around saying, "Wonder when we gonna get paid?" (Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	And did she get her pay? (Laughing)
Mr. Jordan:	She went to him - Yes, she did! (Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	She got her pay the next day?
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway -(Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	Good for her.
Mr. Jordan:	- anyway, she was pretty tough, and uh, she worked there a number of years, and uh, my daddy didn't really like her working there really. I, I say that kind of quietly, but, and maybe I wouldn't want you to say that, because they're really nice people -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- but Daddy just wasn't fond of anything that looked like it was kind of a slavery situation -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	He didn't like it. And so -
Ms. Lawrence:	What kind of work did she do for them?
Mr. Jordan:	As far as I know she worked in what they call the laundry room.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Yes, in their home now. You know it's a great big house. She worked in the laundry room. And uh, they were long hours.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	I mean really long hours. And then there were times, you won't, I don't want this part to be in anything -
	(Pause while tape is off for roughly three to five minutes)
Ms. Lawrence:	After your mother's workday, she would come back here, uh, to your home, and what kinds of things would she have to do in -
Mr. Jordan:	Okay -
Ms. Lawrence:	- in her house?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, let me just go back a little bit and say this. It wasn't unusual at all, that Mom would go to work as early as eight o'clock in the morning -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and not return home until eight o'clock at night.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? And so uh, now, I'm not saying that was every time but it wasn't unusual either. And so, when she would come back home, now of course she had, you know, personal things to do for herself, if even eating her dinner and so forth -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	You know. I can remember when, long after we the children, and my dad had gone to bed, my mom would be out on the backporch, with uh, she had a ringer washer at that time, and we didn't have running water in the house -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? And so Mom would wash the clothes, run them through the ringer on that washing machine, then they would have to be dropped in another tub to rinse, you know, and then, in that tub, you had to ring them out by hand. She would -
Ms. Lawrence:	All hot water?
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, I'm not even sure. I guess. But she would wash clothes, she would have to prepare the evening meal for the next day! On a woodburning stove, you know, a woodburning cookstove. And you know, there could have even been other things that I don't even know about that she had to do that, whatever the typical things, well you know she didn't just leave the house in a state of disarray -
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	- she'd have to clean up and, and just, dishes, probably all the dishes had to be washed and things like that, but if she ate late she probably had to wash her own dishes and it was just so much. It was so much. And like I said, my dad, my dad was a very very hardworking man. He put in very long days on his job and when he came back home it was not unusual at all for him to work around the house doing things until way after dark. And when he would come in and finally wash up and eat his dinner it wasn't long before that that he would be in bed because he really had to get up early the next morning to go to work again.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. So did you -
Mr. Jordan:	And -
Ms. Lawrence:	- sit at the table as a family or, sounds like he ate separately from your mother?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, the only time I can remember us eating together as a family was on Sundays.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? That would be the Sunday evening meal.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And it didn't have anything to do with the the fact that we weren't all there and this type of thing, we were there, it was just that their schedules -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- didn't permit them to really be there, you know, with us.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so like I said, Dad was an extremely hardworking man and I don't ever, not in my whole life do I ever remember him taking a vacation. Not even once! And Dad worked until he was seventy-three years old. He, even when my mother had advanced in age and was still working, there were times on her job that she had to go with the, the Van Clief's to Saratoga (New York) -
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	- You know, they went to Saratoga for, they had a horse farm and they went up there I guess to sell horses and so forth, I didn't understand it a whole lot. But anyway, she would have to go with them, and would have to be up there for several weeks! You see? And -
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow. In the summer?
Mr. Jordan:	I guess that was in the summer and on other occasions they went to Florida, you know, they went to different places, but certain-
Ms. Lawrence:	What would she do? Just -
Mr. Jordan:	I don't know enough about what she did on the job, but it was a part of her job. She, this was a part of her job. Now she wasn't the only one. I mean there were, there were other families right here in the community - I'll give you the names of some that you could interview -
Ms. Lawrence:	Sure.
Mr. Jordan:	- they can tell you, you know, why all these people had to go.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	But they did. When the Van Cliefs went to Saratoga for several weeks or even a month or more, they took many of their staffpersons with them, you know. Their "help" I should say -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- with them. And wherever they went.
Ms. Lawrence:	What happened when your mom was away, and your dad might have been in Arlington -
Mr. Jordan:	It was a, well no, Dad wasn't in Arlington at that point.
Ms. Lawrence:	At that point, okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	He was local. But I'm saying, it's still, can you imagine the burden it put on him?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-uh.
Mr. Jordan:	It was just, believe me, very toughgoing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And so uh, Dad was always really glad when that period was over, you know, I mean -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- when they had gone to Saratoga, or wherever it was, and it was time for her to come home, Dad as a matter of fact, he would be so excited about having her come back until many times, he wouldn't wait for them to bring her back. He would go and she would meet him in like, Philadelphia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ooh! Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	You know? They would be in New York or wherever, but anyhow, he would meet her there because Daddy had a lot of relatives. A lot of his relatives were in Philadelphia.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And so this gave him an opportunity to see them, and then too, his wife to see him too, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	And maybe have a little time together before -
Mr. Jordan:	A little time together, that's right, maybe a day or so, and then come back, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And we use to, kids, we used to look forward to that too because that was one of the few, rare times that we got to go anywhere, you know, on a long -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh so you went with him?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah. Yeah, well see you couldn't leave us.
Ms. Lawrence:	I see, okay. Right, no, I was wondering, that was my next question.
Mr. Jordan:	We were the three young ones, you know. That's right. He had to take the young kids with him.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And Dad, like I said, was really, Dad amazed me in so many ways because, not having had a formal education, he was just so smart.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	See I learned to do electrical wiring -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-mh, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- among other things. And one of the things that I remember so vividly was that when I was quite young, I was experimenting with wires and on one occasion I remember we had a lamp, or maybe a radio or something that had a broken cord and I put that cord back together, and plugged it into the outlet and the thing blew the fuse all over the house, you know (Chuckle). And so Dad came down and he was really, really frustrated because you know, maybe he didn't even a spare fuse at the time -
Ms. Lawrence:	- Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know, had to go to the store and get one. But he, after finding out what had caused it to blow, he just sat down with me and said, "Now look, I'm going to show you something so you don't ever do this again", and he showed me how to separate the wires and insulate them so that they didn't touch each other and then wrap them back in. I think that really was the beginning for me of my real interest in electrical wiring. I guess I was a little more than forty years old when I finally went to school for it and learned how to do it and I still love it today, really. I don't do it, I never did it, you know, to try to make a living at it, but I've had some wonderful wonderful experiences in electrical wiring, believe me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-uh, uh-uh. You've done several houses in the community, isn't that correct?
Mr. Jordan:	Yes, uh-huh. As a matter of fact I've upgraded the electrical service in several houses in this community and other communities as well. And I also, along with another member of our church, when our church was remodelled, he and I wired it. And we also wired Brown's Mini-Market down here. And so it's been a great experience, it really has. Like I said I never did it to try to make a living at it, but it was always a nice supplement to what I did otherwise.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. Let's get back to your childhood, your experiences as a child. You had chores along with your brothers and sisters?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Can you describe some of those chores?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, pretty typical for that time, which meant that we had to make sure that there was enough firewood in the house. That might have meant going to the woodpile and actually cutting the wood. Now we didn't have powersaws, you know. There were saws that we called bucksaws, which was like a two-hand saw. And we had bucksaws, we had axes, and that was pretty difficult at that time, but you know, you learned how to do it, how to kind of chop wood without cutting your foot off, you know? (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. (Chuckle)
Mr. Jordan:	But most of the time, until we were pretty much, reasonably advanced in age, you know the older ones did the cutting and the younger ones did the carrying. But we had to have, make sure there was firewood in the house. Daddy kept a great big old woodbox in the kitchen that had to be filled up all the time. And we also had to bring water. We didn't have any water in the house, and the nearest spring - that's where we used to get water from - was over at the Yancey's, the man the school is named after.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	But it wasn't, you know, water is always at the bottom of the hill. It's never on top of the hill. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Right. (Chuckle)
Mr. Jordan:	So we had to go to their property and go way down to the spring. You go down with the empty buckets but you go back up with the full buckets, you know? And imagine what that was like when we had to bring washwater, when the barrels hadn't caught enough water -
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	- think of how many times you had to go to the spring to fill up a tub of water.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway -
Ms. Lawrence:	The whole, all of you would do this?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah. Well, not all of us, no no. It would be like maybe two guys were supposed to bring the water while somebody else did something else. We had chores like working in the garden. My dad always raised a garden. That kept food in the house in addition to what they bought from the store. And that meant going out there and chopping corn and tomatoes and whatever else was in that garden. We also had to gather the vegetables from the garden at times, like gathering beans and then preparing them so they could be cooked and so forth. And, uh, we did a lot. My mother and father taught us to do a lot of things for ourselves. We kept our rooms straight. We made our own beds. We ironed our clothes. And uh, really, I don't remember having to wash clothes, but we ironed our own.
Ms. Lawrence:	The boys too?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah boys too. And we knew how to sweep the floors. We didn't have vacuum cleaners and things like that but we knew how to mop floors, how to wash dishes, practically everything around the house that had to be done.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she have to lay it out for you what you needed to do or -?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't really think so. I mean, I don't ever remember my mother saying, "This is how you iron a pair of pants," but we always had older siblings, that we had seen them do it so many times, I mean, as a matter of fact, when you're a young child and somebody's ironing, you almost beg them to let you try!
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter) Right. That's right.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying, because it's a new experience.
Ms. Lawrence:	It's a toy!
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah that's right. But that's how you learn, you see?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so we had to do all of that, and we also had to do homework, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And that wasn't anything that you had a choice in. You had to do your homework. And so, it was a lot to do, it really was. You know, you had to get your clothes out for school the next day. And you had to bathe yourself, you had to do a lot of things!
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, but you kind of knew what needed to be done around the house?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah, oh yeah, definitely so.
Ms. Lawrence:	The Yancey's spring, could anybody access that, or did you ask permission every time you needed water?
Mr. Jordan:	See, I think it was up to the parents to do that. And you know, they had already established - and I'm calling it the Yancey's spring - I honestly, it might not have, let me see, I guess it was really on their property. But you know, this was just, you know how a spring is made, this is just a stream of water -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- that somebody at some point digs out a certain portion there and that becomes a spring.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	But I think it was on their property. I know we had to cross their property to get to it so it probably was their spring. But who got permission and all of that I just don't know and over the years I don't remember there ever being a time that maybe their family and ours fell out and they said well, okay you can't use our spring anymore.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	There was nothing like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	People were just, everybody was struggling I guess to survive. It just, there wasn't any such thing as that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did they seem to be struggling like everybody else?
Mr. Jordan:	Not really, not really. The Yanceys was one of a few families in Esmont that by our standards anyway, they were very well off. I don't mean they were rich. I don't mean that. But they were, they had one of the nicest homes in Esmont, okay? They were educated people. They didn't have a lot of children, you know. They didn't have like ten children or twelve children, they just had a few children. One of their sons at least went on to become a judge. Judge Roger Yancey. Like I said, they, money just didn't seem to be a problem with them. Now I don't know all about what Mr. Yancey did or what Mrs. Yancey did, but you know, they were a very refined, respectable family in the community. And there were a few others in the community like that. And some, their means of income was clearer than with others. The Yanceys happened to have been one of those families that as long as I can remember, many of them lived away from here, lived like in Jersey (New Jersey). And I didn't see or hear from them until they came back. You would always know when some of the Yanceys were home because they would come in nice cars and everything, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah.
Mr. Jordan:	There were other families in the community like that. It seemed like almost everybody in the community, not everybody now but the overwhelming majority was really poor. But for those who were not, they really stood out.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	They really did.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did they do anything for the community?
Mr. Jordan:	I think they did. I think they did in maybe in areas that I don't even know anything about.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Because otherwise if they had been families who had a lot and were snobbish with it, you would have heard that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	But I never heard any reference, any ugly reference made against them. It was always - they lived by very nice, high standards but they had the respect of the community at the same time. Like I said, there were other families that same way. You know I -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you remember their names and would you care to share them?
Mr. Jordan:	Some of the others? Well, now this is how I saw these people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, others may not have seen them this way.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's all you can go by.
Mr. Jordan:	That's right. But the Simpsons, the Simpsons were also, now this is, this family lived right across from the location of the school down there now. They lived right across the road from that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	They too had a very, very nice home in the community. And a lot of land, you know. And they, Mr. Simpson owned one of the biggest stores here in Esmont.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know. And he had at least one person from the community, now there might have been others, who worked for him, you know. And I think, now his wife -
Ms. Lawrence:	At his house?
Mr. Jordan:	Yes, I think this guy worked at his house, and maybe a little bit in the store too, but not in the store like as a clerk or anything, maybe kind of custodial work or something like that -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know. Uh, his wife might have been ill. Now I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I can't remember her very well. But this too was a family that, they, many of them lived away from here, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	They seemed like they went away to get the better jobs, you know, but they came back home from time to time, always very well received. They were just beacons in the community.
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Would they, yeah. I'm just thinking would they bring back, kind of, information, stories about the places that they then lived, was that part of the excitement to hear about these places?
Mr. Jordan:	I just, I really don't know. I mean, you know, there are people now who do so much, not probably like the old times, but there are people right now who do things for the church and -. Let me just say this about the Van Cliefs. Now this is not of course an African American family, this is a white family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But the Van Cliefs, they have been known, not just to employ people in this community, but they have been known to make some contributions and gifts to the church that uh, I tell you, it was really, it's been really really nice.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	Now that's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And even now that the mother and father are both deceased, even the sons still, they didn't have any daughters, they had all sons, and even the sons still do some very very nice things for the church from time to time.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm, hmm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And they still employ people, you know, from the area. So, like I said, some things that even the African American families did, you know, I don't necessarily know it all, but I can tell you they maintain a very high level of respect in the community. So there were things that probably I didn't even know about.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right, right.
Mr. Jordan:	That they been doing.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's a good, good point. Can you tell me a little bit about your schooling? Where you went to school.
Mr. Jordan:	Well, I went to school, I started school at the old Esmont school, okay.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	And when I started school there it was a high school. Now before my time, this same school, high school didn't go any farther than the eleventh grade at that time, that's when you graduated. And later on I think it went to the twelth grade. But when I went to school there, I can't remember how many years, it was very primitive. You know, there was no cafeteria, there was no gymnasium. What sports you had were outdoor types of sports. They had a couple of basketball goals there, you know, but not a real court or anything. I think it was all right on the dirt, you know what I'm saying.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	There was no concrete or anything. And you played games like horseshoes and, throwing horseshoes, and you had all kinds of relays and we played softball and, I don't think, I don't believe the school had a baseball team but the community did. And speaking -
Ms. Lawrence:	Do you know the name of that? Ooh sorry.
Mr. Jordan:	Speaking of that, let me just tell you this -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	- real quickly. I'll get back to my school but let me just tell you about this while I'm thinking about it. Esmont has had some really, really, really talented people over the years who, unfortunately, whose talents were not recognzied to the extent that they should have been.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	One was a man in the community who, this man had such a reputation as a pitcher, a baseball pitcher. This man had such a reputation that it was known in Buckingham, in Albemarle, in Nelson, in Fluvanna, in, all over.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	Now it's the truth. It's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did you ever clock him? (Chuckle)
Mr. Jordan:	Well, no. But what I'm saying is, this man, unfortunately, was, he was heavily involved in alcohol. Not so much at the time that he played ball I don't imagine, but in later years, he was just. . . . And everybody, you know, I did door to door sales for fifteen years and I can tell you that in the neighboring counties, if I went in almost any direction and told persons there, older people, that I was from Esmont, they would say, "Did you ever know Buster Scott?"
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth!
Ms. Lawrence:	Goodness.
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth. His real name was Albert Scott.
Ms. Lawrence:	So when he was in high school he played, is that when he -?
Mr. Jordan:	See, I'm -
Ms. Lawrence:	What was the team?
Mr. Jordan:	I don't, Buster was a lot older than I and so I don't know how far he went in school, but Buster had a God-given talent to play ball, see?
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	And if it had been developed, I don't know where he would have -
Ms. Lawrence:	Twenty years later -
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	I'm not kidding. And he was (Inaudible). And you talk to some of those in the community who are older than I and they will tell you the same thing. Just say, "What do you know about Buster Scott?" They might now, I should, I'd better throw this in, they might remember that he was an alcoholic.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	But say "What do you know about Buster Scott as it relates to baseball?"
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And they'll tell you. I'm not kidding you, he was that good.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, what a shame!
Mr. Jordan:	But anyway, look, when I was in school, we, it wasn't unusual at all to go to school in the winter months and get the fire started because they had a janitor who would, see the school would have maybe seven rooms, seven or eight rooms, and he would go around to every room and make the fire before the schoolday started. But there were times when he had made the fire and it hadn't done well, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	It was practically out by the time the kids got there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	So the teacher would send some of us boys out to get some what we call "Crow nest", you know, and that's just -
Ms. Lawrence:	What's that called?
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) It's called "Crow Nest" or "Crow's Nest".
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh, uh-huh. (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? But (Laughter) it's just small branches that have fallen from the trees, you know? And so you'd break those branches up and put them in the stove and put some paper in there with it and start that fire again. Then when the fire got going they had coal that was stored under the school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, this is just like in a crawl space. And you'd take a coal scuttle and a shovel down there and get a bucket of coal and bring that in and throw it in the stove and that's what kept the fire going all day. (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	You hope.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah you hope, that's exactly. So, yeah, I can remember being in cold classrooms for a good portion of the day until the fire getting going. And you learned, you took every subject in that same room. You didn't change classes or anything.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	But it was beautiful. It was beautiful, because learning was fun. Believe me. I mean it was just, you were, you learned things that uh, you just wouldn't have learned them otherwise, because you know you didn't have a lot of books in your home. You had old textbooks maybe, but not so many like we got, Lord, we've got books going to bed that we've just bought to read, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	You mean in, you might have had textbooks in your home?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, you might have had textbooks from your older brothers and sisters.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh okay.
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes.
Mr. Jordan:	They didn't, at that time, when you finished with a book, you didn't necessarily, sometimes books changed before their next grade, and so that book was obsolete.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah okay.
Mr. Jordan:	You know, but uh, and parents didn't have a lot of money for the newspaper and magazines and things like that so anything, when you learn, when you finally learn to read you wanted to read -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes.
Mr. Jordan:	- everything you could find, you know. And so, like I said learning was fun. I was blessed to have been able to do very very well in school, I really did. Even though, to some degree I didn't know how to handle it. Because, well, I say that because I don't know how it is with girls but boys want to be popular, with the girls (Laughter) in school, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And uh, if you were really really good in your classes and everything then a lot of times some of the kids would just shun you, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	My brother had that problem.
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth! Well I'm glad, then you know what I'm talking about. So, then you didn't know, you were kind of, you know, had mixed emotions about it, you know, do I really want to keep on winning the spelling bees and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Ooh!
Mr. Jordan:	This that and the other, or do I want to be popular with the girls, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	What would they say to you?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, I think that you received a lot of teasing you know because, now, let me put it to you like this. I think that if you were really smart and some of your peers weren't, then they didn't put it on that, they would find whatever they could to - maybe you got big feet or whatever, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	They'd find anything they could to tease you about. Maybe your clothes were raggedier than theirs because you came from a family of twelve and they're from a family of three, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	And so anything they could find to, to -
Ms. Lawrence:	Pull you down.
Mr. Jordan:	Pull you down, ya' see what I'm saying. And that was -
	(Side one of tape ends. Switch to other side)
Mr. Jordan:	(First part of this sentence was begun when side two had not started yet)- knew was important anyway. I was kind of weak in that area.
Ms. Lawrence:	Weak in what area?
Mr. Jordan:	I mean weak in just letting it roll off my back.
Ms. Lawrence:	Ah!
Mr. Jordan:	I looked like I carried it as a real weight with me a lot of times, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	But let me turn to a more pleasant side of it. Let me say this, that it was great in school to have, you know, I had really good report cards and things, and then, at a point, now I don't know what grade I was in when this happened. Maybe this was because of overcrowding or something, but some of us had to leave that school, Esmont school, and take our classes in another building, which was a few yards down the road. You know, less than a quarter of a mile, I'd say less than, shoot, less than a tenth of a mile, down the road. And that was a building that had one large classroom upstairs and one large classroom downstairs. That was the extent of it, it was just a two-story building but that was all there was to it. And so I think I might have gone to that school one year, I'm not sure. And don't even -
Ms. Lawrence:	Is this older kids?
Mr. Jordan:	Pardon me?
Ms. Lawrence:	Was it for older kids?
Mr. Jordan:	No, no no. This was like, maybe when I was in the - I'm guessing now - third or fourth grade. So we went to that school. We called it the Little School, it didn't have a name. And then years later, Burley was built. And so Esmont then was no longer a high school, it was just an elementary school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And so you went from the first to the seventh grade at Esmont, and this eliminated that Little School, okay?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So from there, then you went to Burley. Now remember, I came out of a school like I said, with no cafeteria, no gymnasium, outdoor restrooms and all of that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So to leave all of that and go to Charlottesville, that was kind of a traumatic situation too, you know? Because in the first place, we didn't really get to go to Charlottesville that much. I didn't know Charlottesville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And it was very different from what it is today, where kids go everywhere, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But when we went to Charlottesville, it was like, that was just a rare treat, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	And we didn't go anywhere by ourselves, we went with our mother, you know, or our father.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes.
Mr. Jordan:	And so when I had to go to school in Charlottesville, then I was trying to keep up with the boys, you know, and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Which boys? In school?
Mr. Jordan:	I mean my buddies, yeah my peers in school. And many times they would do sneaky things and I would do it with them like (Chuckle) sneaking off from school and going downtown. But one of my -
Ms. Lawrence:	In Charlottesville?
Mr. Jordan:	In Charlottesville. I mean, we'd just maybe skip a class and go downtown. But it would frighten me half to death and I didn't let 'em know it -
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) Because I was scared I'd get lost.
Ms. Lawrence:	You were cool - Oh! (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) I didn't know how to get back to the school again.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh that's great.
Mr. Jordan:	Well it's the truth. But I mean this was when I was, now remember, when I entered Burley, I was only twelve years old.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	See my birthday is in September, and it's at the end of September -
Ms. Lawrence:	Aw.
Mr. Jordan:	- which means that when the other kids were thirteen I was only twelve.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	I graduated at 17 where they were 18, you see?
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, right right.
Mr. Jordan:	But now the other thing was this. I was only twelve years old but I was 6 feet tall.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! How confusing! (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) Yeah you see what I'm saying? So anyway. . . .
Ms. Lawrence:	So what did you guys do when you snuck off?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, we would go downtown to the stores and maybe buy something, and probably try to snitch something sometimes! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	But really, not a lot of that. I mean it was mainly just something to, just a daredevil type of thing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh sure!
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And it's like playing hookey. And so. . . .
Ms. Lawrence:	No girls did this with you though?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh Lord no. Girls, man, I tell you, girls were so different than they are today.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	Girls were, girls just didn't do the devilish things that boys did, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Or you just didn't see them do it!
Mr. Jordan:	Oh we didn't, that's r- (Couldn't finish the word because he was laughing so hard) maybe so! But anyway. The other thing was, now over there, you changed classes. That was frightening too. Sounds crazy.
Ms. Lawrence:	From room to room?
Mr. Jordan:	That's right. If you had six classes a day, you might have had six different teachers, you know what I'm saying.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So that was confusing. I used to think I'd get lost in that school.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	It wasn't like, prior to going to Burley you went to visit it. You just, the transition was like bingo, you're going.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah. Yeah, wow.
Mr. Jordan:	You might have spent that entire summer between Esmont School and Burley frightened to death of going there, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah! And then to have a cafeteria. That meant you had to eat before other people that you didn't even know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh in front of?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah in front of other people, you see what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Huh, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	I know these things don't sound like anything to you because you're young and, and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Well it's such a different scene now.
Mr. Jordan:	That's right, it's a different era. But I'm telling you to have to do things like that in front of people, I always -
Ms. Lawrence:	What had you done at Esmont, for lunch in school?
Mr. Jordan:	In Esmont you carried your lunch in a bag and you can take it out there in the woods and eat it if you wanted to, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	In private?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Is that what you did?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, not necessarily. I mean, maybe I had two or three little guys who were my friends that we ate together.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, okay, okay, right.
Mr. Jordan:	But this would be a cafeteria full of people. And there's a table full of especially girls, we were very bashful (Laughing), they'd be over there watching you eat. I didn't even know how to properly use a knife and fork, really. We ate with a spoon, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, yeah. So a lot of anxiety.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, sounds crazy. But it's the truth. And you'd have to have your money for your extras, milk and whatever. But anyway. And Lord, you didn't dare take lunch to school. (Laughter)I mean, that would've been the pitts, you know. So that was kind of a hardship for mom and daddy but still they did it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Gosh.
Mr. Jordan:	The other thing was, in that when you went to gym class, see, you had to participate in some very rigorous sports, and then you had to come back and shower, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-oh.
Mr. Jordan:	And you see what I'm saying (Laughing), that's what the people do!
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah, sure.
Mr. Jordan:	And so you just don't know the impact that some of these things -
Ms. Lawrence:	Especially at 12 years old.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah! You see what I'm saying? And uh -(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Well but you survived!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) Yeah, but it was tough, I'm telling you. I tell my wife all of this now and she gets the biggest laugh out of it. But uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	Well so did you - what were you going to say?
Mr. Jordan:	Well I was just going to say that you just don't know how these things compounded the fears that were in you.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now, as time went on, and you weren't the underclassman, after a while you were in the tenth grade or the eleventh, well then you had done it for so many years man, you know, hey, it didn't matter. But you had to get there, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, yeah. What was it like being, yeah, one of the older guys? Did you date? When you got to be that age?
Mr. Jordan:	(Sigh) Yes, but let me, I tell people this and they don't believe this, but I was so bashful in school. I really, really was. I mean, my self-esteem was pretty low. I knew - I guess to some degree I was kind of like living two lives in a way.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	But always inside I knew who I was. And that was frightening (Laughs).
Ms. Lawrence:	Who you were, inside?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, really. And so I was very very bashful with girls, I really was. I guess I wasn't comfortable with dating until I was -. Now I didn't say I didn't have a girlfriend. I mean I liked girls, maybe sometimes who didn't even like me (Laughs). I didn't really get comfortable with dating until I was I would say at least in the tenth grade, at least in the tenth. And see even in tenth grade I was still only like 15 years old. And then, now remember, dating, it wasn't like I took my dad's car and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Dating for us was like a group of guys going out to try to mix with girls at parties and so forth. But uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	Or dances? Did you have dances?
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, dances, something like that. And then too, a lot of the places that had public entertainment for African Americans were very rough places, very rough places.
Ms. Lawrence:	In Charlottesville or Esmont?
Mr. Jordan:	Yes, in Charlottesville. Well both places really. Because a lot of times, when they had house parties at different places here, a lot of times it was very rough houses. And then there was drinking and uh, well, they just weren't places that your parents were glad to have you at a lot of the times, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah. Would you be allowed to go to those parties?
Mr. Jordan:	After I got to a certain age my parents didn't really put the brakes on me, but they gave some very strong advice and some cautions and things, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And even though I didn't always adhere to it, it was almost like I could always hear them right in my ears -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yes!
Mr. Jordan:	You know what I'm saying. I always knew -
Ms. Lawrence:	Perched on your shoulders.
Mr. Jordan:	- that's right. And so, I think I got comfortable in that when, like I said, probably somewhere between the tenth and twelfth grade, and I don't think it really got. That's the wrong word because I don't think I really became comfortable with it until I actually left home. I graduated from high school, and then I went four years into the military, and I really think that is when I became who I now am.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) You know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, came into your own, yeah, sure.
Mr. Jordan:	I came into my own, it's the truth, I mean really, because -
Ms. Lawrence:	That makes sense.
Mr. Jordan:	- I was away from everybody who knew me and, I only came home two times in four years, it's the truth. But it was an experience that I'll probably never forget, it's the truth.
Ms. Lawrence:	Being in the army?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yeah, in the air force I was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah. And so, but school was good. And I'll tell you something else, I had a very wrong conception about what could and couldn't be done as far as furthering my education.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now, I had one two three older siblings who had gone to college, and one had graduated and gotten her degree. One had become ill and had dropped out of college. She later, later, many years later went back and got her degree. And then my brother who had gone to college and for whatever reason he dropped out and I just don't know the details of it. They're a bunch older than I. But anyway, at the time when I came along, I knew things were tough for my parents, and I just didn't know a lot about how to go about getting assistance to go to college and everything. I'm not saying it wasn't available, but I didn't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so I just resigned myself to the fact that I was going to go into the military and make a career of it. That's what I thought. And so, I was 17 years old when I graduated and I immediately went to my parents and told them that I wanted to go into the military and I wanted them to sign for me. And they said no.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh.
Mr. Jordan:	Now, all of my older brothers had been here. And my mother and father and all of their experiences had been, you know, reasonably good. But my parents were very good. See, they say, now we don't mind you going, but you're going to have to wait until you turn 18 to make your own decision. Because if you go in there because we sign for you and you don't like it, you're going to forever feel like, "if only they hadn't signed."
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm, oh!
Mr. Jordan:	And it was wise -
Ms. Lawrence:	Wise.
Mr. Jordan:	So I left home at 17 and went to live with my brother in New Jersey, and his wife.
Ms. Lawrence:	What was his name?
Mr. Jordan:	My brother Monroe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, and I went to live with him and his wife in Newark, New Jersey. And the very day that I turned 18 I went down to volunteer for the military. And they were very slow calling me so, even though I passed the test and all of that, they have a time that they do these things. So I left Jersey (New Jersey) and came back to Virginia and signed up again down here. And they called me. And so that's when I went in. And like I said now, I had, I wouldn't take anything for the time I was in the military, even though I didn't really love it like I thought I was going to love it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And I think it was so wise what my parents did, by not signing for me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But by the same token, and I thought I was going to make a career of it and obviously I didn't, but I can tell you now, that it was one of the best experiences of my life. It really was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	Because it was a time of growing up. It was a time of having to do for myself. It was a time of, you know, you don't have time to be a boy anymore, you've got to be a man here. It did so much for me in so many ways, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	I'm a disabled veteran today and, not a hundred percent disabled, but I'm a partially disabled veteran, and I tell you, the benefits that I have received - hospital care, all of my medicines and everything - I just thank god for it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, excellent.
Mr. Jordan:	I really do, I really do. So I think what I was leading to say was that I made the mistake of not going to college, I really did, because I thought that my parents couldn't possibly send me to college. My kid brother came right behind me and got his degree, you see what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And even when I was in the military, there was a young man there named Craig Chamberlain, who was from Clifton, New Jersey. He and I were quite close friends, young white fellow incidentally, and he said, "James, look, let's go to college here, in the military." And by that time, my attention was (Laughter) on having a good time then.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckling) Oh! After all that working so hard!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) That's right, that's right. You know, I mean, when I say having a good time I mean, I just, I had girlfriends, and I just loved it, I really did. And so, anybody said "let's go back to school", man I (Laughter) (Inaudible).
Ms. Lawrence:	Passed that.
Mr. Jordan:	That's right. But he was so wise, and he was right. And so, like I said, I should have done a lot of things differently, but still I wouldn't trade it either -
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	- because, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, I do.
Mr. Jordan:	I learned a lot, I really did. If I had it to do over, though, I think I would go on to school, but the air force recognized, when I was in there not very long at all, they wanted me to go to what they call officer training school in the airforce. And I considered it, and then I gave it up quickly because it said your enlistment will automatically be extended for two years and -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yikes.
Mr. Jordan:	- see, you'd be surprised, two years, you and I know that two years is gone like (Makes snap sound with fingers) that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	But when you're 18 years old -
Ms. Lawrence:	It's forever!
Mr. Jordan:	- it's forever! You see what I'm saying? And so I said, "two years more?! No god, I'm not going to do it. (Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughing)
Mr. Jordan:	All of these were dumb things but I learned a lot from them, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	So I said no, I didn't do it. And of course now I wish I had done that, but I'm still thankful because it was an experience that I wouldn't have had anywhere else. Believe me.
Ms. Lawrence:	No, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) And I guess I can't say very much more today I don't guess, huh?
Ms. Lawrence:	About today?
Mr. Jordan:	No no, I mean, haven't I talked enough on one tape?!
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh! Let's, let's pause, because -
	(Stopped tape and part one of interview)
	(Second part of interview on October 30, 2001, at Mr. Jordan's home)
Ms. Lawrence:	And my first question, wrap up questions, is your service in the air force that you told me about last time briefly. Did it change you in any way that you think is fundamental and/or did it change how you perceived your life here in Esmont when you came back?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, let me say this. I believe it would be very difficult for any young man to go into the military and not come back unchanged. Now, that could be a negative or a positive change. But I think for most, it's a real, real positive change. Because for me, I graduated from high school when I was 17 years old. I was tall, like I am now, but still, I was youthful in a way, you know. I was only 17. And I didn't have a lot of experiences in the world, and so it was a time for me that, well, let me put it to you like this: When I got out of high school, I asked my mom and dad if they would sign for me to go into the military because you couldn't go in under 18 without your parents' consent. And they decided that they would not sign for me, even though they had had six sons prior to me, who had gone into the military. And they decided they wouldn't sign because they said it was entirely possible that I might go in, and not like it. And the branch of service that I was going in, wanted to go in, the air force, requires four years. So they knew that that would be a long time to be in a situation that I didn't like. I think just by virtue of our human nature we tend to try to throw off on someone else what our negative experiences are so they felt like I would forever be blaming them, that, you know, had they not signed I wouldn't have been there. Well anyway, when I went in, it was, I'd have to say a life changing experience for me, because first of all, I hadn't had a lot of interaction, close interaction, with white people. There was only one family in Esmont, white family, that was really close to the African Americans, you know? And that was because they lived in this area.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And -
Ms. Lawrence:	Who were they?
Mr. Jordan:	That was the Moore family, the Moore family. I'm saying "because they lived here" but I don't think it was really that. They were really special.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	Now, that doesn't mean that they catered to everything that we wanted.
Ms. Lawrence:	Right.
Mr. Jordan:	I mean, the guys were, they were just typical guys.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	If things were going well, it was fine. If it wasn't going well, they would fight you just like anybody else would! (Laughing)
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And I can remember vividly, that Mrs. Moore, many times, would be sitting right in our home with my mother and they would be laughing and talking like sisters.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow.
Mr. Jordan:	And the boys would come over and there was at least one girl in that family, I don't remember a lot about her. She was kind of one of the older ones I think. But the younger boys that I knew would come over and play ball and whatever, and when time came to go in the house and eat they would come in and eat and it was just, you know -(Chuckling)
Ms. Lawrence:	That was when you were a kid?
Mr. Jordan:	That's right. But I'm saying, I was trying to relate that to what I experienced when I went into the military.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	So when I went into the military and found myself in the midst of a real integrated society, well, it was a really new experience for me. Even though as I said I did get to know the Moore family quite well, but they were by far the, well I guess they were not at all like the other whites in the area.
Ms. Lawrence:	Sure. Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	They were by far the exception to the rule is what I was trying to say.
Ms. Lawrence:	Were they native to this area? Or did they move in from an area -
Mr. Jordan:	I don't really know that. I think they might have moved here from somewhere but I don't know where. But they were really decent people. And, anyway, most of my experiences with whites in this area where I lived had been really negative, really negative.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	I remember an occasion where a police officer tried to, well he talked about arresting me, and for something I hadn't even done, you know. I was sitting in a place where some guys were drinking and as the police officer went by someone said a cuss word and, you know, he came into the group and like, you know, "come on, you're going with me".
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, just to you?
Mr. Jordan:	I had, just to me! And I had said nothing and my brother, one of my brothers and some other men who knew me quite well were right there, they said, "oh no, indeed, he's not going because he didn't do anything" and none of them actually said they did it either, but he just had the wrong person.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So, it was negative experiences like that that I equated with white people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so when I went into the military, I met some guys who were, honestly, they were just, for the lack of a better phrase, I would have to say soul brothers (Laughing) in a white skin! (Laughter) I mean, they were really decent dudes -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- my wife will tell you, I often tell her, one of the most decent young men that I ever met in my life was a young white fellow from Clifton, New Jersey named Craig Chamberlain. And Craig was, he was just the cream of the crop really.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mmm.
Mr. Jordan:	And Craig even tried to get me to further my education in the military. And I was so busy with the ways of the world until I just didn't do it, you know. But I still remember him well to this day, and many of the others too. So the life changing part of it was that, first of all, it opened my eyes to the fact that, basically, people are people.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And it was good to know, it was good to know that black and white could all live under the same roof, and when I say live, I mean eat together, sleep together, work together, play together, worship together, everything! You know? We could all live under the same roof, and get along like people should get along, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so, I was in this environment, in the military, for four years, and just about the time that I was ready to be discharged they had, the Cuban Crisis was going on. And so my enlistment, or my discharge, was threatened at that time. They had let us know that we definitely would not be discharged if that culminated into anything serious, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so, when that died down, well, of course, I left the military, and I went ahead and got my discharge, and then had to come back to a situation that was almost forgotten in my mind.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Because in four years of military I only came home twice. And so I was in that real friendly environment - and when I say friendly I mean among everybody - real friendly environment for four years, and then came back here and found that things really hadn't changed in Esmont (Chuckle). So I had a really hard time dealing with it. I came back here and, I don't know, I had been in a city, I had been in San Antonio, Texas for four years, which is a city of I guess more than half a million people, I reckon. And it was a real fast lifestyle, and you know, the bright lights, and just all the entertainment you ever wanted, and to come back here to Esmont which hadn't changed, really. And so I just couldn't take it for a while.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So I had a brother who lived in Charlottesville, who was single, and I was single at the time, and so we decided we were just going to move away and just weren't going to make Esmont our home. So we took the names of about four places and wrote them on a piece of paper and just, on an individual piece of paper, and just put them in a hat and shook the hat and said "Whatever comes up!" (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughing) You make decisions just like I make decisions!
Mr. Jordan:	That's right, that's right. So that's where we were going. And I know one of them was I believe Boston, Los Angeles was one, and what the other two I just can't remember. But Los Angeles came out of the hat. And so, I had money saved from the military and we were both free, weren't married or anything, single men, so we left and went to Los Angeles. And really, with no intention of coming back here to live.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so, I went out there and it kind of was a very similar environment to what I had been in for the last four years, and that was good. Well, anyway, after having been there a while, I went over there and worked in a bank, Bank of America, out there for a while, training anyway to be a teller out there, and I didn't really like that that much, even though that was the only job, decent job, that paid well, that I found. So my dad became ill, really seriously ill. He had had probably one, possibly two heart attacks before we left, but then he became ill again and so there was no one at home at that time but him and my mother, so then I decided to come back. Came back into the area and I had to look for a job of course, and I was staying with my parents at that time. And it was the weirdest experience because I didn't know anything that black men did, except, well, the really menial type of jobs. And I didn't want to work in a quarry like my dad had worked in, you know, anything like that. I had tried pulpwood, if you know what that is, cauling and cutting pulpwood, and that is just, I can't tell you how difficult that is.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	I had done construction work and was doing construction work at the time because when I came back that was the first job that I found, a construction job. And so I knew I wanted to do something different, so I started going around to different places to apply for employment.
Ms. Lawrence:	Just in Esmont, or elswhere?
Mr. Jordan:	In Charlottesville, in Charlottesville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And I got a real break because I went to Sears Roebuck, among other places. But I went to Sears and I submitted the application and, at this time, what happened was the boss, the manager, was there, and I guess it was probably just his common practice that when you submitted an application he would look at it right then, while you were there.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm, hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so he looked at it and he said "I've got a test I'd like you to take." And I didn't know what it was about. So anyhow, I went ahead and took the test and gave that back to him and he said "James," he said, "on your application you applied for", oh I've forgotten what they called them, but anyhow people who cleaned the store, I guess they were called porters or something, I don't know what they were, but anyhow he said, "you applied for either that or to be a truckdriver's helper" -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and I didn't know anything else that black men did then -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and so he said, "I'd like to try you," he said "I would like to hire you and I would like to try you in another area". And I asked what that would be and he said shipping and receiving. I had no idea what shipping and receiving was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm. (Chuckle)
Mr. Jordan:	(Chuckling) I, remember, I was born and reared right here -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay? And when I went in the military I didn't do anything in any shipping and receiving.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	So I didn't know what it was! But I didn't say that to him, so I just said "okay" you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh. (Chuckling)
Mr. Jordan:	And he put me back there in shipping and receiving and just to make a long story short, I stayed there five years.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And I tell you the truth, it was an eye-opening experience for me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	It let me know that with proper training I could probably do many many many things, if just given the opportunity.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm, mm-hm. When was that? Mid sixties, when was that?
Mr. Jordan:	This was in, I guess, around (19)64, this is '64. So anyway, like I said, he put me there and I even had the opportunity while I was there, I did all of the store's shipping. I helped with receiving merchandise, pricing it and taking it out to the floor and so forth, checking quantities and checking for damage and things like that, did all of that. Also I had the opportunity to be the first African American salesperson - I said the opportunity now, I didn't take advantage of it -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- but they wanted me to be the first African American salesperson that Sears Roebuck had in Charlottesville.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow!
Mr. Jordan:	It's the truth. Now guess what? It frightened me. The idea -
Ms. Lawrence:	Ooh.
Mr. Jordan:	It really did.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's terrible.
Mr. Jordan:	It frightened me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	And I didn't take it. But you know, I could have, and to this day I realize that it was a mistake, but anyway, sometimes you have to make some mistakes in life to learn some things, you know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Now you were probably the only black person who, at that level of the shipping and receiving corps -
Mr. Jordan:	Oh I was, I was. As a matter of fact the only other black persons, men anyway, in the store, was guys who were the cleaning guys. There were some in the warehouse, some, I don't know if any of them drove trucks but I know they worked as truckdrivers' helpers.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And there was a lady who did alterations in the store. And other than that, that was it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so it was a pretty, you know, -
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	- high level job for, even though you know today I know it's not really a high level job -
Ms. Lawrence:	Well -
Mr. Jordan:	- but it was comparatively speaking.
Ms. Lawrence:	That's right, yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	And so that was a good experience, it really was.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, I don't want to take too much time on one question! (Chuckle)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, right right. Okay, um, I just want to -
Mr. Jordan:	But the military, let me just say -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	- for the military, again. Uh, I'm a disabled veteran, okay. And a lot of people think when you say disabled veteran that you were in a war and got shot or something like that, it doesn't mean that necessarily.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	Uh, I'm just disabled by virtue of what physical problems I incurred while in the military and came out with.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so, anyway, I would say this. That for any young man, any young man, even in this time right now of war, (This interview took place during the war against Afganistan following the events of 9/11/2001) I think the military is just a wonderful, wonderful place to be, and to learn, growing up, learn interacting with other people -
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	- and it has potential for growth and success like very few places I know.
Ms. Lawrence:	All right!
Mr. Jordan:	I mean that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh, the names of the Moore family, I'm just curious if you remember any -
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	- of those names! (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	Now, now like I say, I don't know what these people will think. This is going to be in print somewhere is it not?
Ms. Lawrence:	Well you said a nice thing about them! (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Chuckling) Well, that's right that's right. The lady was Mrs. Elsie Moore.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	That was the mother. And, now her sons, I can't remember that daughter's name. I think her name might have been, don't quote me on this, ask some of these other people -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	- you're going to interview, if they're older than I am, ask them, that girl's name might have been, shoot, I don't know, I'd better not say it -
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	- for some reason I think it's Dorothy but I'm not sure.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	And the guys were, that I remember, one was killed. One was killed, I think he might have, you know how guys will just, I think he was killed by the ice truck is what they said. They said that he was maybe on a bicycle and had grabbed the back of a truck, and the man was, you know, in some way he was killed. I don't know how.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes, yes, huh.
Mr. Jordan:	But Earl was his name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Earl Moore (Uncertain of name). I think. Put a question mark there 'cause I'm not sure that was his name.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, okay, I will.
Mr. Jordan:	But the ones I remember was Ray Moore and Lawrence Moore. Now Lawrence was I think the youngest one of them.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. Dad?
Mr. Jordan:	I knew Lawrence better than Ray but I knew Ray also. And the dad, that's funny, I don't know what his name was. He was there! But I can't, I just, Mr. Moore that's it. I did know his name...Henry Moore (Uncertain of name)I believe.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay!
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah put Henry and a question mark.
Ms. Lawrence:	With a question mark, all righty. Um, you told me about the midwife who delivered you. Could you just encapsulate that story again?
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) Yeah, yeah, just, now look, don't let me go on and on. I'll just -
Ms. Lawrence:	I won't, I'll cut you off.
Mr. Jordan:	To the best of my knowledge, that lady's name, now let me think of it again, was Mrs. Fannie Ford. Fannie Ford I think. I learned, I talked to a friend of mine, I won't call her name right now, but anyway, I talked to a friend of mine in this community, what I think you interviewed. Did you interview Lorraine? (Lorraine Paige)
Ms. Lawrence:	Not yet, we're gonna do her next week.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay well anyhow, I'll just tell you that's who it was. I talked to Lorraine - that's that cord falling I think (Refers to cord in room) - I talked to Lorraine about this very thing, and she told me that there were other midwives in this community too. I didn't know that. The only one I ever heard of was Miss Fannie Ford. She also told me that Mrs. Ford did have a family of her own. Remember I told you I didn't think she had a family?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah!
Mr. Jordan:	Well, she said, Mrs. Ford was actually Mr. Barn Ford's mother and some other's in this area and I don't know 'em all.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hm! Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So she did have family.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	But she did, her reputation as far as I know was that, you know, she delivered a good number of the babies in this community.
Ms. Lawrence:	And all the ones in your family.
Mr. Jordan:	I think every one. I think, now that may not be true because my oldest brother and sister were born in Sand Road.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Which is, it's kind of like Esmont but another area of Esmont, okay.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	But they were born in Sand Road so I don't imagine without transportation such as we have now, you know most people walk or hired a horse and wagon or whatever, and she probably wouldn't have gone there. But I will say the younger ones of us. My mother and father had twelve children. I would guess maybe eight out of the twelve she delivered. I'm guessing.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. And you don't, do you remember meeting her, seeing her?
Mr. Jordan:	Oh yes! I remember seeing her, but now, only to, not to know that she delivered a child. Now, crazy, let me tell you what's really crazy. I have two, in my family, had a brother and my sister are younger than I. Now, I don't ever remember my mother being pregnant. (Chuckle) Now think about that! I really don't!
Ms. Lawrence:	Have you ever -
Mr. Jordan:	And yet I'm five years older than my sister.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow!
Mr. Jordan:	But I don't remember my mother being pregnant. The only thing I remember, I don't even remember anything except all of a sudden there was a baby.
Ms. Lawrence:	Wow!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Well some women don't show it I guess.
Mr. Jordan:	Well, I don't think that was the point. No, I think momma might have, now I don't know, but I just think that, even if she, her stomach was big, we didn't know why -
Ms. Lawrence:	Uh-huh.
Mr. Jordan:	- you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, yeah, she ate a lot that morning. (Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) We just didn't. And then too, when I think now that I was only five, but five year olds can be very inquisitive, you know that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yes, yes.
Mr. Jordan:	But it's funny, I don't ever even remember my mother being pregnant. So, I guess, yes she did deliver a lot of us, you know. But mom and dad had had my older brother and sister and at least one other brother before they moved to the house that most, right here in Esmont, that most of us were born in, okay.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm, mm-hm. And can you describe Mrs. Ford, generally?
Mr. Jordan:	Not well at all.
Ms. Lawrence:	Not physically at all but like her reputation, as a person.
Mr. Jordan:	Oh, I think her reputation was great, I really do, because she, I believe, was a very kind, caring person. I don't believe that she delivered children at all for the sake of the money. I don't believe that, you know, and yet I believe that she may have been given something. But, families were extremely poor, and I can remember when a lady used to come to our house and help my mother at times, and all my mother could give her was maybe some food or, you know what I'm saying?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And money, you know, people just didn't have it, really. So, I think she did what she did out of love, and if someone did wish to give her something and could give her something, she might have taken it. But other than that, I think it was just a love of people, really you know, was the motivating factor, I would think, I really do.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she treat your family for other things?
Mr. Jordan:	Not to my knowledge, not to my knowledge. You know, they had a public health nurse that came through here in my young days. This is a white woman, Ms. McFarlane (Phonetically). And there were, as Lorraine told me, there were other women in the community who did some of this midwife thing. And at least one of them was a nurse. Now, and I don't think that many people in the community really realized that until this woman, who was deceased, but I mean, this was an African American woman. And I don't think, you know, I mean, maybe she didn't practice nursing here, you know, maybe she, when she came here, I just don't know.
Ms. Lawrence:	Yeah, maybe at the hospital -
Mr. Jordan:	But but, no, but I don't think she did at the hospital either.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, huh.
Mr. Jordan:	You see, 'cause I don't know where -
Ms. Lawrence:	Was she married?
Mr. Jordan:	Yes, yeah, it was just her and her husband. Ask Lorraine about it.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay I will.
Mr. Jordan:	About Miss Alice Nelson (Phonetically).
Ms. Lawrence:	Mrs. Mc - Alice Nelson?
Mr. Jordan:	Ms. Alice Nelson. Now Ms. Alice Nelson an African American woman.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Who I believe was a nurse. I think Lorraine confirmed that to me.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay. One more question, Mrs. McFarlane.
Mr. Jordan:	Mrs. McFarlane. Uh-huh.
Ms. Lawrence:	How was she received from the community?
Mr. Jordan:	Well, Mrs. McFarlane I think was received well because, you know, she was paid I guess by the county or somebody to come to this area and you know, administer shots and do certain things that, preventive types of things I think. And she was a very friendly woman and people knew that they needed her services and I don't know if there was any charge at any time for anything. I don't know, now.
Ms. Lawrence:	Did she do it at a school or church?
Mr. Jordan:	She went to people's homes.
Ms. Lawrence:	Homes, okay, okay.
Mr. Jordan:	Mm-hm, yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	And that was in the thirties, when you were a child, did you say? Or was it in the forties?
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) But look, I don't want everybody to know my age!
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh that's right that's right! Uh-oh! Taboo subject, that's right.
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) And so don't, I might have given you some dates or some things -
Ms. Lawrence:	No you didn't!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) But don't tell 'em -
Ms. Lawrence:	Don't worry.
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing)- don't tell 'em my dates.
Ms. Lawrence:	(Chuckling) Okay, anyhow, I'm just trying to get a sense of the history here.
Mr. Jordan:	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	I think I'm done with my questions here. Is there anything you can think of that you would like to add?
Mr. Jordan:	I thought you had a third question, didn't you have a third question?
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh yes I did! Yes! You had mentioned changes in the church over time.
Mr. Jordan:	In the church. Yeah. I could probably say that in a very few words. And that is, prosperity tends, unfortunately, to diminish in people's minds their need for God, okay? And that's not unique to Esmont, you know, that's unfortunately a world-wide problem. Well, when I was young and families were really really poor, we were so strong in the church. So strongly dependent on the Lord, you know. And even though in reality that dependence hasn't changed, you know, we need the Lord more today, than we did then. But, unfortunately many don't see it. And so as a consequence, our churches are not full as they should be. And even many times I feel like with those who attend, are there physically and sometimes not really mentally at all, you know?
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	And so it's very unfortunate because Jesus is coming back, believe me when I tell you, Jesus is coming back. I was reading a book last night about "God Speaks to Modern Man" is the name of the book, and Jesus is definitely coming back. And so, I pray that the eyes of men and women will be opened, and I think to some degree they have been because of this recent terrorist activity, but I pray that the eyes of men and women will be open before that great day. Because I'm telling you, from that instant on, it'll be too late you see. So it seemed like the Lord is working well in your life and I pray that you know the Lord.
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, thank you.
Mr. Jordan:	I mean it, I mean it. Because nothing else in this life matters like that.
Ms. Lawrence:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Jordan:	So as I said, I think there's been a great falling away. I know in my lifetime the fire in the church, and this is not singling out any one church, but the fire in churches, many churches, has dwindled down to just a flicker rather than a flame. And uh -
Ms. Lawrence:	But it's still there.
Mr. Jordan:	It's still there.
Ms. Lawrence:	The flicker's still there.
Mr. Jordan:	It's still there, believe me. And God, in essence, will always be there, see. But many, many, many - Scripture tells us that "broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, but narrow is the way that leads to everlasting life," see.
Ms. Lawrence:	Hmm, hmm.
Mr. Jordan:	And it says "narrow is the way, and few there be who find it", see. But, I guess that would be my statement on that. (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay! Quite a statement, thank you so much.
Mr. Jordan:	So you said a last statement? Well let me say that you've been very very kind, and very nice to work with in this -
Ms. Lawrence:	Oh, thank you.
Mr. Jordan:	- and I pray that I haven't said anything that might be offensive who might read what you print.
Ms. Lawrence:	Well you know, we are going to give you a chance to review the tape before this all goes up there, so -(Laughter)
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter) Oh okay, okay, okay! Right, and I've only given my perception of things as I saw them. But I don't believe -
Ms. Lawrence:	That's all we ask.
Mr. Jordan:	- that it's very far off at all. And I would just say that I wouldn't want anyone to think that my view of the past is negative at all. I want you to know that I've had a life that I wouldn't change, and let me also say this in wrapping it up. You know, I thank God, I thank God, and I hope you will put this on tape, I thank God for the wonderful, wonderful, wonderful lady who came into my life (Laughs) as my -
Ms. Lawrence:	You're going to make me cry again!
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughter)- as my wife. And I will say that we have been married for many, many years, and it doesn't mean that everyday has been peaches and cream, but it does mean that it has been a glorious experience in my life. And first in my life would be, if I were to rate the things in my life that are most meaningful, of course the first thing would be becoming a Christian. But second, and a very close second would be marrying my dear wife, and then would be the wonderful family - children and grandchildren that I have - (Laughing) she says to me, she's never seen a man who loves his family so much. But I do, even right now, we're expecting to go this weekend, on Thursday as a matter of fact, and see our youngest daughter and granchildren. And man, we can hardly wait, we're like children waiting for Christmas day! (Laughter)
Ms. Lawrence:	(Laughing) That's great, that's great. Okay, all right. Well, that puts your life into perspective. Those are pretty wonderful things to be happy about.
Mr. Jordan:	(Laughing) Oh yeah.
Ms. Lawrence:	Okay, I'm gonna turn this off now.
Mr. Jordan:	Okay.
Ms. Lawrence:	Thank you so much.
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of James Jordan on October 10 and October 30, 2001, by Sarah R. Lawrence of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)