Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of John Frederick Harlan, Jr. by Lynn Carter and Diane Berkeley of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on March 7, 1995. (Oral History)
Biographical Information John Frederick Harlan, Jr. is the grandson of James Fulton Harlan, who built the house at 203 Ridge Street in 1888. Mr. Harlan grew up on Ridge Street, and lived in the family home until after World War II. He served as Director of the University of Virginia Hospital until his retirement in 1991. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Ms. Carter:	...March 7th, 1995, and we're going to talk about what he remembers about Ridge Street. One of the first things we want to know is, when you - when you first lived there and the addresses, etc. Please?
Mr. Harlan:	Okay. Lynn, the house on Ridge Street - as you crossed the bridge to go out on Ridge Street it was the first house on the right. And it was sold to the city of Charlottesville around 1953 or '54 to build fire house there. It was situated on one acre of land and of course the railroad - C & O railroad was right beside it and there was a driveway between the house and the railway. Plenty of big trees - oak trees and lots of grass to cut and a big garden in the back, two cherry trees, a pear tree, a strawberry patch, some raspberries and lots of grapes. So, that's what I grew up with - the house - my grandfather moved to Charlottesville and built the house in 1888. My father was born in the house in 1889. And he was -
Ms. Berkeley:	Excuse me, can you go a little slower?
Mr. Harlan:	Oh, yes. Yes. Yes.
Ms. Carter:	We - we - we will play this tape back so, you can hear.
Mr. Harlan:	Okay.
Ms. Carter:	You can borrow the tapes too.
Mr. Harlan:	When my grandfather moved here - he had been born in Rockbridge County in 1842 and was in Jackson's Brigade in the Civil War and survived five years of that. Which is amazing. He was in prison for part of the time, horse fell on him and broke his leg and he came home for a year. But over all he was gone five years and apparently in the Confederate Army. So, he opened a store on Main Street - a General Store and ran that store for a long time. He was on the school board. His name was James F. Fulton Harlan. And my father was - as I said born in 1889 and actually born in the house. He was in World War I in the 29th Infantry Division and my grandfather lived until 1924. So, he was about 82 or 83 years old when he died not bad for the days of no antibiotics.
Ms. Berkeley:	Right.
Mr. Harlan:	The store then - then my father did not run the store and it was rebuilt and was Sears Roebuck on Main Street. Do you remember that name? Sears downtown?
Ms. Carter:	You - downtown? I don't remember it being downtown I remember when it was up on West Main.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. But for the first twenty years it was downtown and there was a store - it was built in 1937 for Sears and then-
Ms. Carter:	Where was it on Main Street? Down at the other end?
Mr. Harlan:	At the Vinegar Hill end.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, I don't remember that but it might have been before I could remember.
Mr. Harlan:	Okay. It was - it - it became Leggetts it was - part of the store beside it was Leggetts and then when Sears moved up on West Main Street they took over the whole building that was Leggetts. And, in fact, my brother and sister and I just sold it, you know, to Lee Danielson.
Ms. Carter:	Yet another store to Lee Danielson. Well, listen I just hope he can come up with all this money.
Mr. Harlan:	Well, he's already come up with a lot of it, you know, so, he can -
Ms. Carter:	Where does he get it? It's not his.
Mr. Harlan:	I don't know. No. It isn't all his but he's got other people in with him and that can make a difference. So, anyway, that's the brief history on the store and the house and - and remember in the house - because I remember a lot of things about it.
Ms. Carter:	Now, first - let me interrupt for just a minute. You said you were telling us about all the trees and everything?
Mr. Harlan:	Yes.
Ms. Carter:	You said you were brought up there but did you go there when you were first born? Was this - the whole of the family all lived together?
Mr. Harlan:	Right. My - my mother and father lived there - they got married in 1925 - in January of 1925 and my mother was a nurse. She finished her nursing school at the University in 1916. And my aunt was also a nurse that lived there and so, I was raised by both my mother and my father and my aunt who lived there with us.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. Because your grandfather had died just before you were born then. Yes.
Mr. Harlan:	My father didn't get married until after he died. He and my aunt really took care of him. So, yes. I was born at the University Hospital. Did you ever listen to my talk on the history of (Inaudible)?
Ms. Carter:	No.
Mr. Harlan:	(Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	Oh, I'd love to see - I'd love to see it.
Mr. Harlan:	(Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	I'd love to see that.
Mr. Harlan:	But I was born there so, I just showed one page of my medical records. Then my brother was actually born at home - my mother just went into labor so, fast so, he was born in July at that house. Which he thought was rare and I pointed out to him that in 1940 one half of the babies born in Virginia were born at home - one half and that's a fact. That's hard to believe.
Ms. Carter:	So, then - so, it was the two women, your father and mother and you two boy's right?
Mr. Harlan:	And my sister - my sister.
Ms. Carter:	When was she born?
Mr. Harlan:	She - she - her birthday is July, 1st and she's about five and half years younger than me. So, she -
Ms. Carter:	Was she born at the hospital or at -
Mr. Harlan:	Hospital. Yes. They got up there in time for her.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. Okay.
Mr. Harlan:	So, that for a school it was walk to school in those days and I don't remember in my eleven years of school missing but one day for snow reasons. Not bad cause everybody walked. And it was McGuffey Elementary School.
Ms. Carter:	Right.
Mr. Harlan:	And then in 1939 - September of 1939 I started high school in the old Midway building. And one of the things that I remember about that is people yelling, extra, War because you remember World War II started on September 1 and the radio and television are not like they are today, the newspapers had extra's. The Daily Progress and the News. So, then for one year I went to the Old Midway school and then the new Lane in what is now the county office building, opened in September of 1940. So, I graduated from high school in 1943.
Ms. Carter:	Because, people just went to high school three years at that time?
Mr. Harlan:	Well, four because there was no eighth grade.
Ms. Carter:	No eighth grade. That's right. It was jut one - one - one term.
Mr. Harlan:	They started the eighth grade year a year after I started high school so, both my brother and sister had the eighth grade but I didn't. So, when I finished I was seventeen years old and I went to the University of Virginia. They were on a accelerated program.
Ms. Carter:	I was -
Mr. Harlan:	This was in July of 1943.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. Yes. I was there - I was there then.
Mr. Harlan:	You were?
Ms. Carter:	Yes. I was a graduate student. So, we might of passed each other.
Mr. Harlan:	Probably, you know, we had to wear hats. Remember, it was a coat and tie school and you wore a hat if you were a first year student.
Ms. Carter:	Right.
Mr. Harlan:	I rode my bicycle lots of times and I would just park it right outside of Alderman Library, never locked, never worried about anything.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, I know. Leave your coat and your books and all - anything any place.
Mr. Harlan:	So, by - lets see by November I'd finished one semester and by the first of March I finished one year at the University and then I went into the Army. That March, almost fifteen, twenty years ago. Now, what is it - it was 51 years this month - it would be - was the day I went in.
Ms. Carter:	March the 9, 1943?
Mr. Harlan:	'44.
Ms. Carter:	'44? That's right you - you - yes.
Mr. Harlan:	So, I had one year at the University before going in. But let me go back to the house a little bit and tell you what I remember about it. We had - we had a sidewalk, which was great for riding tricycles in the early days. It ran all the way the block. Did you interview (Unclear, someone's name)?
Ms. Carter:	Oh, yes.
Mr. Harlan:	Okay. How about - how about Margie Ix?
Ms. Carter:	Oh, sure. She was there on Sunday - you didn't come.
Mr. Harlan:	No. I couldn't get there Sunday.
Ms. Carter:	But Margie was there with her husband.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. Jerome and I are - were in the same place in high school. You know, I can remember we were able to - we played a lot of sports. We played a lot of football, touch football and tackle too I guess. There were hedges to cut, grass to cut, leaves to rake and the old push lawn mower - once you get older, when I got older I did that. Now, I did a lot of running. I remember we had a lot of hedges out there you could - you could run over hedges out there for about four houses up. It was like doing high hurtles in the Olympics. It was fun doing that and acted like you were (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	Who lived next door to you?
Mr. Harlan:	J. Brown was on - was on our immediate right and he ran a little store over in Belmont. That - that house was also taken down to make way for the fire house. So, the city bought two houses.
Ms. Carter:	Do you remember his first name?
Mr. Harlan:	What's his first name? I remember his daughter is Eve Gray from (Inaudible), but I don't remember his first name. But we got - they got (Inaudible) - but across the street was Jack Fowler, who was commissioner. And beside him was Ms. Edna Bailey (Inaudible), you remember.
Ms. Carter:	(Indicates, yes.)
Mr. Harlan:	And then was talking to (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	(Inaudible)
Mr. Harlan:	(Inaudible) on that side and then back on the side we were on the next house was Lou Hawkins (phonetically) - Hawkins' brother's store and his wife. They had no children. And Matty Thomas (phonetically) who was her sister. Although they didn't have any children they - quite a few of their nephews actually lived there while they attended the University of Virginia. And my - when my father and mother and aunt also had a cousin that lived in Rockbridge County who went to the engineering school at the University of Virginia. Lived with us for four years and they paid for their college education gradually in the early '30's. Pappy said it was a real debate about it since he was going up to the University every day to whether I should go ahead and start there instead of starting in the first grade.
Ms. Carter:	You would've made it John.
Mr. Harlan:	I'm sure.
Ms. Carter:	You would've made it.
Mr. Harlan:	Anyway, I never really thought about going anyway because I was so, interested in Virginia and the athletics particularly the football. I started going to football - as they say I went to a football game with my uncle who died in 1928 - 1929. He took me - he took me to my first football game - of course I don't remember anything about that. But my aunt and father were big sports fans - Regent Ele (phonetically) was a good friend of my father's. Who was coaching at Virginia and so, I got started very early and as my brother and I would go to the Virginia games - football games in the late thirties - by ourselves - we would just go up there and take fifty cents go in actually.
Ms. Carter:	And it perfectly safe too.
Mr. Harlan:	We could go in - and the crowd was always small; a very good thing with very few people being there. The other sport that we were interested in was boxing. Boxing was the big - the big winter time sport in Virginia instead of basketball in those days. And Memorial Gym would be filled by 7:00 and the fights would start at 8:00. Well, Buddy and I would go up there at 6:00 when they would open the doors. We'd go in - we'd walk in the track in the balcony there in the Memorial Gym and sit on the floor right above the ring. And - on the track there and watch the boxing matches and the first year that I did that was 1936. Because they had the national tournament here in 1936 and 1938 and we went to those. I wish I would've saved some programs from those days it would be interesting to have them. So, with that kind of interest in athletics in Virginia it wasn't any surprise, I guess, that I went to U.V.A. The surprise was that after going to the M.C.V. that I came back here and stayed because I really didn't plan to do that. But after my administrative residence they offered me a job and so, one thing lead to another and in '49 - 39 and half years later I left. But let me go back to the house a little bit.
Ms. Carter:	Yeah, I'd like to hear about that too.
Mr. Harlan:	I've got a couple pictures but the house itself you went out - there was a porch on the front that went all the way across the front and then the entry way - you went in and you had a hallway and a stairway going upstairs. And to the right immediately on the inside was what we called a parlor. That's when you had company you used the parlor. The next room was the living room and then - and back at the far end of that hall was a big coat rack and there was a phone on the wall. Now, this is early, before we had lots of phones, you know, one telephone per house, you know. And that was downstairs and on the wall back there. And then beyond the living room was the dining room and we used that dining room all the time. And then the kitchen, now the kitchen was interesting because in the kitchen we had a coal stove and beside the coal stove was a hot water tank. And so, actually running the coal stove every morning actually heated the hot water that was used the rest of the day without any problems. And we had a maid - I was actually raised by Sinie Payne.
Ms. Carter:	How do you spell Sinie?
Mr. Harlan:	S-i-n-i-e Hill Payne. P-a-y-n-e. And she was there the whole time, you know, so, you could say I was raised by my aunt, my mother, and my full-time maid. Now, she lived rent free on a house in the back - back of the lot there. Which opens up on - what is that street? It's not Dice street is it?
Ms. Carter:	No.
Mr. Harlan:	No. But anyway the street's definitely not Ridge.
Ms. Carter:	Is that Oak?
Mr. Harlan:	I'm not sure.
Ms. Carter:	No. It isn't but I was on that street the other night.
Mr. Harlan:	We owned the lot all the way through there. She would start the fire in the morning and bake biscuits every morning. Now, that's interesting too because being beside the railroad during the Depression it wasn't unusual to count as many as sixty hobos on the train - on the freight train. And there were lots of trains that went by the - a lot of steam engines and we had three passenger trains going each way and numerous freight trains. And the freight trains, during the depression, were what the hobos were on and so, it was not usual for them to stop by and ask for something to eat. We had a lot of that thate went on, and we always had plenty of biscuits that were made every morning. And jelly - we made all kinds of jelly - I don't think I every had actually bought jelly until I was in the service to tell you the truth. Because certain things were just made at home with all the fruit we had around there. It didn't seem to me like the birds bothered the cherry trees much in those days and there were big cherry trees, they had a lot of cherries on them. But anyway it was kind of a nice place to grow up. There were plenty of kids to play with and what I did that I liked the most. When I was in high school I organized - we didn't have a little league in those days. But we organized teams by streets and so, I organized the Ridge Street team. And we would play games against Fry Springs, Belmont, Locust Avenue. Various parts of town, you know, would have teams. There would be people designated leaders. So, I would get on the phone and call all my players and get theirs and we are going to play Saturday morning and, you know, it was - it had more leadership with the younger kids than you have today. Because you've got adults running little league today whereas I did it in those days.
Ms. Carter:	Did you come across any black children or were black children on your team ever?
Mr. Harlan:	No. They weren't ever. Nor do I remember ever playing against them. But they were of course around, a lot of them. Another thing that I did I made a little soapbox derby racer. And it wasn't fancy all I needed was a big board and a two by fours and I'd go down to Hunter's Junk Yard and gather old steering wheels. Wrap rope around the steering wheel and it went to the two by four wheels on the front so, you could turn it either way. And Garrett Street was pretty steep, you know, right across there it's closed.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. Yes.
Mr. Harlan:	But I'd take that racer right on down Garrett Street, down the hill with it, with the steering wheel. It wasn't a fast racer but it was kinda fun, something you could make on your own, so that made it nice. I remember learning to ride a bicycle at a fairly early age and yet it probably wasn't all that early when you think about it. I don't know how old I was but I probably was - probably was second or third grade. We didn't have training wheels in those days - you had to get on that bicycle and learn how to drive - ride it. One of the things that we did in the '30's we would go to the Lafayette Theater on Saturday morning.
Ms. Carter:	I remember that theater well.
Mr. Harlan:	And we'd see a cowboy show and so, you know, we all had our guns on, we had cap pistols and we'd strapped holsters down and we pretended to shoot at each other after - after going to that movie. And I really - you know, in Germany Hitler had the Hitler youth. And they had formal training and we had cowboy shows on Saturday and we just pretended all the time shooting at each other. So, we went through, I think, the American soldier had an amateur-type of training program that was equal to - at least equal to the people I've talked to in Germany who were there as kids. To any of their formal programs that were - that were run by Hitler.
Ms. Carter:	And you all weren't being mean either.
Mr. Harlan:	No.
Ms. Carter:	This was just play acting.
Mr. Harlan:	Now, you there we shot you, you know. Can you imagine having those laser things now that you can actually tell? I can't imagine the the electronics. But we did our best - that was our Saturday - it cost ten cents to go to the movie. And if you, maybe you could buy a little cup of ice cream for a nickel. Now, they didn't have popcorn pretty much - I don't remember that anyway. (Inaudible) But one of the things that you could do in elementary school that I did is carry newspapers. You could carry the Daily Progress or the News Reader in the afternoon. And make a fair amount of money. The Progress was fifteen cents a week and the carrier got a nickel. And it was six days that you had to carry it that would (Inaudible) and it was not published on Sunday and then go around and collect from people. And the route that I carried was the University route, which was up on Rugby Road.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, so, how did you get up there? Ride your bike?
Mr. Harlan:	Bicycle. Oh, yes. Always the bicycle. Yes. To carry the papers even in the rain. I remember one time it was raining so, hard and I came down Rugby Road and turned to go down by the Rotunda and my bicycle hit the street car track, you know, they don't have them anymore.
Ms. Carter:	I remember them too.
Mr. Harlan:	I hit one of those and slammed into the wall.
Ms. Berkeley:	Oh, my gosh.
Mr. Harlan:	It didn't hurt but it did some damage. You really had to be careful on these street car tracks.
Ms. Carter:	Right, right. But they still had the street cars where you were growing up?
Mr. Harlan:	Oh, yes. I remember the street cars.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. Yes. Because they were gone when I came but the tracks were still there. I came in 1942.
Mr. Harlan:	They may have pulled those tracks up and used them for metal for the war - I'm not sure what.
Ms. Carter:	I can't remember when they took them out of the University area.
Mr. Harlan:	They had it paved over. Were you in the education school?
Ms. Carter:	No. I was in the graduate school.
Mr. Harlan:	Okay.
Ms. Carter:	I was just telling in Bea, in Latin and Greek.
Mr. Harlan:	Oh. One thing I liked about going up to the University library and I used it when I was in high school. They had nice translations up there when I was taking Virgil in high school.
Ms. Carter:	Oh yeah, I know about those translators.
Mr. Harlan:	Because (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	Lets see to get back to - to get back to Ridge Street a little bit can you remember - how about church? Where did you all go to church?
Mr. Harlan:	First Methodist.
Ms. Carter:	First Methodist.
Mr. Harlan:	So, it was another walk to Sunday school to church - the First Baptist Church.
Ms. Carter:	Did you go to both Sunday school and church?
Mr. Harlan:	I wouldn't want to lie, maybe you didn't go every Sunday but we would go to both - Sunday school first and then go onto church with your parents. The - it was - we had very good Sunday school I do remember that. It was something I really enjoyed. Another thing - this was a little bit later. But in 1940 my aunt took my brother and me up to New Haven to see Virginia play Yale.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, my gosh.
Mr. Harlan:	I have the program. And Virginia won that game in 1940. We were probably the only... My brother-in-law, my future brother-in-law was at that game too. We were probably - not very many people from Charlottesville went to the game. But this was a planned trip, we went to New Haven and then we came down to New York and went to the 1940 World's Fair.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, I went to that because I lived in Philadelphia at that time.
Mr. Harlan:	We went to a baseball game, we went to - we saw all the sights in New York City. In addition in going the fair - we spent a week in New York. Next Saturday we went on down to college park and saw Virginia play Maryland so, you can see what sort of a football fan I was in 1940 and during that time my aunt was too. And then we came on home so, we actually - she - we actually were out of school for a week - but it was a nice educational thing. I don't know whether people frown on that today or not (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	But they frown on everything else. So, what can you do?
Mr. Harlan:	My father was also on the school board and my grandfather was on the school board and then later I was on a City school board. So, we had a three generation thing on the city school board. But it was interesting - I will just comment on that a little bit. I remember when I was on the school board my secretary (Inaudible) and she said I bet Mrs. So and so is happy to see you, she wanted an appointment with you. Then, I said well, check and see if she's ever been a patient here and then she said I haven't been a patient here and I wondered what she wants. It turned out that day after day people came to see me with school problems at work, you know. And so, it was personnel files - it was the same kind of stuff that I was doing at work and sometimes the board meetings would last past midnight. After three years I'd had it there was no change in pace. It was just terrible and it is worse today I know that. They get paid today (Inaudible) I say, that whenever everybody else has served three years on school board I will be willing to serve three more. But I also felt it wasn't as easy to be on the school board when you have children in school.
Ms. Carter:	Right.
Mr. Harlan:	You can be much more objective if you don't have kids in school. Now, I think those are the reasons I decided after three years not to seek re-employment. But I always did a lot of things in the way of civic affairs. I was in the Jaycees, after I started, you know, in my job at the University and then I was president of the local Jaycees chapter. And then was part of the charter forming of the Thomas Jefferson Lions Club and the president of that. One of the things that I felt was very important was - was to have my assistants in civic clubs. I think that - that, that - that helps in - if you spread out in the community so, many times people connected with the University just don't know what's going on in the community. And don't do anything in the community.
Ms. Carter:	And some of them have never been down town.
Mr. Harlan:	Never. Never, you're right.
Ms. Carter:	It's really astounding to me.
Mr. Harlan:	I had my own .22 rifle when I was thirteen years of age.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, that's interesting to know.
Mr. Harlan:	(Inaudible) Of course I had a B.B. gun - I had a Red Rider B.B. gun in '49.
Ms. Carter:	And a .22 rifle at age thirteen.
Mr. Harlan:	It was a single shot .22 that cost me 5 dollars, that's usual. And I would go hunting - go squirrel hunting and that's a real challenge. Because going squirrel hunting with a single shot .22.
Ms. Carter:	Where did you go squirrel hunting?
Mr. Harlan:	Well, I would go out into the country with friends of mine.
Ms. Carter:	So, you were out in the country?
Mr. Harlan:	Oh, yes.
Ms. Carter:	You couldn't shoot in the city?
Mr. Harlan:	No. You couldn't shoot in the city. I don't ever remember being able to shoot in the city. (Inaudible) I did shoot B.B.s or something, although we would walk a little ways to the end of Ridge Street.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. And that wasn't that far to go was it to get to the end of Ridge Street.
Mr. Harlan:	No.
Ms. Carter:	About where did - did Ridge Street end at? I mean think of-
Mr. Harlan:	It ended - if you look at it now it's a good ways along past 5th Street extension but not to far, maybe about about a third of the way.
Ms. Carter:	No.
Mr. Harlan:	Once you get on 5th Street North. And I - I was out that way probably in 1939 - it was the spring of '39 maybe a mile from home and we were swinging on some ropes when I slipped and fell and broke my arm on the elbow. When I got up and it was just swinging back and forth.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, my - oh, my gosh.
Mr. Harlan:	So, I - it was in - I think it was in early April and I - I had just made a sling with my coat, walked home -
Ms. Carter:	Scared your mother to death.
Mr. Harlan:	Then went up to Charlie Frankel (phonetically) who busted his chin - I think Charlie Frankel took care of me then. I used to kid him about it. They x-rayed it and then they set it up like this because it was in the elbow and I had it on for six weeks. And then when they took the cast off I couldn't get my arm any straighter than this. So, I had to go through a lot of physical therapy and weight on the bar.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, my gosh.
Mr. Harlan:	And you may not notice it now - but the reason I'm not a good golfer I tell people because I can't get this arm any straighter than that. It didn't keep me from being in the service. Nobody ever noticed.
	(End of Side A)
Mr. Harlan:	Now, we had a straight concrete sidewalk that went right into the front door and then a concrete walk around to the side porch. There was a - what we referred to as a cellar - a basement but it basically just had a coal furnace in it. And it was on the other end of the whole house but it was under, enough room in there to have the furnace and it heated the radiators in the house. We went into a porch to go into the front of the house which ran the whole length of the house and then, as you entered the entry way there was a hallway and then some steps immediately on your left going up stairs. Immediately to your right after you entered was a living room that we called a parlor which has antique furniture in it and it was just for company. And then, the next room was the living room and that had a big radio in it. Of course radio was, of course, what we listened to. The programs during the war were Amos and Andy, and so forth. The Washington Redskins on Sunday. It was a fact in 1941 - Sunday of 1941 when Japan - the word of Japan had bombed Pearl Harbor interrupted - what we always had was a meal in the middle of the day on Sunday and listen to the Redskins on the radio. Sometimes, I, with that big radio and my interest in baseball I would try to get a New York station, which occasionally you could get. And I would listen to the Brooklyn Dodgers or the New York Kings. I started keeping - we'd always had the New York Times in addition to the Richmond paper and - and the Daily Progress. I would always be interested in the sports section. And one of the things that I did I would look at the New York Times batting averages of my favorite baseball players. And then I'd keep up with it during the week and no calculators so you had to do long division, but I know that I, of course, had - never had any problems with percentages. I mean, I know what percentages are and when I, of course, looked at these I made sure that my kids kept there own batting averages so, the boys would ever worry about what a percentage was anymore. Yes. And it's sort of fun that they keep their own batting averages. But, yes. Then, beyond the living room there was the dining room which had big dining rooms, I will tell you. And we had company a lot, particularly on Sunday we would always have company there (Inaudible) My mother exposed us to a lot of different meats, I mean, you know, I like everything. We had - in those days we had veal, which I don't think was that expensive, but veal cutlets and veal roast. She felt that it was important from the standpoint of the iron to have liver and I loved it. And I mean liver was a treat that she would give us for breakfast once a week. Usually on Sunday morning, maybe Saturday morning. But one slice of veal which was fifteen cents a pound. I remember some people saying that.
Ms. Carter:	You were probably the only child in the United States who liked liver.
Mr. Harlan:	Probably was but my brother, sister and I all loved liver. I liked veal, you know, and - and it's expensive - it's almost like $7 a pound over at the Giant Food, and occasionally I get it. But chicken livers - I love them. It's a lot easier to eat chicken but I do eat liver you know, it's illegal - cholesterol - but I like liver. So, I was exposed to pork, veal, liver, roast, steak which was - it was a very (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	Chicken?
Mr. Harlan:	I remember - and chicken and turkey but chicken - we had cousins staying up with us one time. More or less our age - boy - two boys and - so, they were spending a week with us in the summer - and Hal (phonetically) wasn't eating them. And my mother said why are you eating Hal and he said I'm waiting for the white meat. Well, you know, we just weren't allowed to just have white meat we had to rotate. We had liked white meat and dark meat, in fact, I prefer the leg today, much prefer the leg to the breast as far as that's concerned. But that's the way we were raised, you know, she said, well, when you're up here you're going to have to eat dark meat.
Ms. Carter:	That's wonderful you remember that.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. Well, anyway and then the kitchen had a coal stove and - and our maid and she lived on the property. So, she start that up every morning and made biscuits - hot biscuits in the morning. She made a lot of other good things too like crackling bread - oh, I wish I had the recipe for that. Outstanding crackling bread, a million calories but outstanding. And the hot water tank beside that which was heated by using that - then we had a gas stove in the kitchen and the gas stove was used to cook the evening meals and it had its other uses too. And the interesting thing about the gas stove was, in order to run the stove, you put quarters in when you ran out of gas. Did you get that too?
Ms. Carter:	No.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. We had a little - there a was a little thing in there that when the gas would run low that you would just put another quarter in and that's the way you got your gas for the gas stove.
Ms. Carter:	That's interesting.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. Yes. And - and so, they'd come along and pick up the quarters periodically. We used to get a lot of buttermilk and Judge Michael's aunt delivered butter milk to us every week.
Ms. Carter:	Was she a farmer?
Mr. Harlan:	Two half gallons. They lived down there evidentially they - she lived down there. Yes. They had property down in there in the Proffit area, and she'd drove in and - and brought buttermilk and, of course, we used a lot of buttermilk making biscuits and things like that.
Ms. Carter:	And drink it too.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. I never really cared that much for drinking it.
Ms. Carter:	I love buttermilk.
Mr. Harlan:	But I do like buttermilk dressing, so, I probably wouldn't mind drinking it now either.
Ms. Carter:	Now, this was in addition to the regular milk? You said you had milk goods.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. The regular delivery from the Monticello dairy we had but in addition to that we got buttermilk. Ms. Michael brought that buttermilk.
Ms. Carter:	So the Monticello -
Mr. Harlan:	No. I'm sure the Monticello Dairy probably had it, you know, they had - it was delivered in bottles and it wasn't homogenized so the cream was at the top. I know that in Richmond there was a dairy down there that had a neck and then it sort of spread out again and so, then they had a little plastic thing you could put down in it and get your cream off it. Do you remember that?
Ms. Carter:	No.
Mr. Harlan:	But they did have that in Richmond but not in Charlottesville. Charlottesville is just a straight bottle. Pepsi was my favorite drink or big drink - a big great four ounce Pepsi cost a nickel. It would seem like you were getting more than you did when you got an eight ounce Coke product. I liked Pepsi Cola. The other thing I remember is you would walk over across near Midway and there was a bakery over there and they had these pastries that were round and filled with cream -
Ms. Carter:	Cream Horns, they called them.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. Cream Horns.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, one of my favorites.
Mr. Harlan:	They didn't cost much either.
Ms. Carter:	Was that in Vinegar Hill, the bakery?
Mr. Harlan:	No. Right there on the street right near Smith Tavern.
Ms. Carter:	Were they black?
Mr. Harlan:	No. They were white and they lived up in near Venable School, in that general area.
Ms. Carter:	Now, lets get back to the house and the porch.
Mr. Harlan:	So, then there was a screen porch in the back and we had - the - we had two cherry trees, a large grape arbor, a strawberry patch and raspberry bushes and a pear tree. And although we didn't have peaches so, we worked with peaches and my mother and my aunt canned peaches and made peach treakle every Sunday. So, we - we were exposed to a lot of food and made a lot of preserves. So, they made some wine too and then we had homemade wine. Barbara made some of that during the Depression and World War II. Well, there was one cute story. I remember my father telling me one time that he was out buying some moonshine - saw one of the policeman in town. And they said, we saw you last night. What do you mean you saw me? They said, we saw you out there buying moonshine. And he said, what. And they said, yes. We saw you leave, but we didn't want to get you involved in this but we raided that place right after you bought that.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, dear.
Mr. Harlan:	Upstairs then, had - had four bedrooms and as I said my Aunt Emma lived there, and she was working as a nurse at the University and my mother did not continue nursing after we were born. She was a homemaker pretty much after that so she did the evening and Sunday cooking. And so, that - we had one bathroom at the end of the hall and that was it. There was an attic in the house - in the front half of the house - had three or four rooms in it.
Ms. Carter:	You didn't tell me about the attic before.
Mr. Harlan:	Well, I don't want to mention that - we enjoyed going up there when we was playing when we was kids.
Ms. Carter:	And you said there was a sofa and sleeping porch that you mentioned?
Mr. Harlan:	And you had a sleeping porch which again was taken down when I was very young. I know that it was sort of - it was the kind of thing that a lot of families had in those days (Inaudible) - so, it was the air conditioning you hoped in the summer time. And I don't whether I mentioned Buddy and I playing with David Gleason (phonetically) or not.
Ms. Carter:	Yes. You did.
Mr. Harlan:	(Inaudible) - but I remember David and Nancy and their mother and father had a big sleeping porch on the back of their house and would sleep out there in the summer time too with four beds. They all had their rooms otherwise when it was so, hot that's the place they would go. And that house is still there too now it's a - a little - it's a - I don't know what they call it - it's a nursery thing.
Ms. Carter:	A Day Care Center.
Mr. Harlan:	Oh, yes. That's it.
Ms. Berkeley:	Is that the Darrett Day Care Center.
Mr. Harlan:	The Jenny Porter Darrett Day Care Center is the house that the Gleason family lived in.
Ms. Carter:	You mentioned about the roller skates cause that was interesting.
Mr. Harlan:	Now, the big thing in addition to riding bicycles was roller-skating. Of course, there was a (Inaudible) - on roller skates and I - I went threw a lot of bicycle wheels - that is tires as where I also went threw a lot of wheels on roller skates. And we would skate all over town particularly going up to the University School and down and around the Lawn and in that area. And then I also talked a little bit about carrying the Daily Progress and the route that I had was up on Rugby Road. And the Progress was nice to carry because everybody tipped you and you didn't have that far to go. I carried the, I substituted the News Leader - on occasion and not as many people take the News so, you have to have a much wider territory to get that. But the Daily Progress in the thirties when I was carrying it, it was fifteen cents a week. And if you had fifty - maybe fifty people you were carrying it for you would get a little amount of money raised there because I got a nickel a week and the Progress got ten cents a week. I guess the only problem you had occasionally was making sure people were home to pay their fifteen cents, you know. We would also pick up scrap metal and take it to the - what we could find and take down to Horner's Junkyard which wasn't too far away either. And then I'd also use them a lot to buy things when I was making my soapbox derby racing. The upstairs in the attic - that finishes the house. The side porch - I'm going to go back to the outside of the house. They had an icebox in a little area off to the side of the porch, a little room there and we'd put out a card for the delivery to get ice. And the card, whichever number was out on top, was how many pounds you would receive, 100, seventy, fifty or twenty-five. And I don't remember the exact year but we got electric - I don't know - an electric refrigerator when they first started coming out. Somewhere out in the middle thirties - I don't remember when.
Ms. Carter:	Yeah. You said 1935 or 1936.
Mr. Harlan:	I think that's right - it would be about the right time (Inaudible)
Ms. Carter:	Oh, I think that's probably it - thanks. This is what we needed to know.
Mr. Harlan:	Yes. Yes. Let me show you a couple of pictures.
Ms. Carter:	Oh, yes. I love to see pictures. Now, here's the house...
	End of Interview
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of John Frederick Harlan, Jr. by Lynn Carter and Diane Berkeley of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on March 7, 1995. (Oral History)