Interview of Melvin Hamilton by Julie Gronlund and Roulhac Toledano of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on August 12, 1994. (Oral History)

Biographical Information
Melvin Hamilton was born in South Carolina in 1915, and grew up in Tennessee. He served in the Army in World War II and served in the South Pacific. After the war he married Gertrude Maria Michie, a woman from Louisa County, Virginia, and moved to Charlottesville. Mr. Hamilton participated in this interview because he raised his family on Ridge Street in the 1940s and 1950s.

Project Description
Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area.

Notes About Our Transcription
The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.


Q1:Let's go over this again because I wasn't taking notes. Now, you came here from where now?
Mr. Hamilton:I came here out of the Army from - okay. I was in the Army. And I came here from - okay. I joined the Army in New York, and I got out in '45 in California.
Q1:Where were you in the Army?
Mr. Hamilton:South Pacific for three years.
Q1:South Pacific? On a boat?
Mr. Hamilton:No. In the (Inaudible - jokes?).
Q1:What did you do?
Mr. Hamilton:Well, I was in the (Inaudible) battalion.
Q1:What's that?
Mr. Hamilton:They got a (Inaudible) name for that - they call it a burrow outfit now.
Q1:Barrel outfit?
Mr. Hamilton:I think think that's what - they changed the name.
Q1:(Inaudible)
Mr. Hamilton:I was in the (Inaudible) battalion. That's what it was. But they done changed the name a couple of times since they -
Q1:Okay. Well, now what did you do? What was it?
Mr. Hamilton:That was taking care of the dead.
Q1:Oh my God.
Mr. Hamilton:A graveyard.
Q1:You were in the graveyard duty. Well, what island? Were you on islands or what?
Mr. Hamilton:I was on quite a few islands. I was on (Inaudible), and I was in Australia. I was in Australia for about a year. And I was a (Inaudible). And (Inaudible). That's about a three mile island. And I said, (Inaudible). That's - that's - have you heard that tape before?
Q1:I've heard of it, but I never expect to go there. I didn't know I ever would know anybody who'd been there.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. I was (Inaudible). I was (Inaudible) about a year. And (Inaudible).
Q1:Did you have malaria?
Mr. Hamilton:No. I had what they call a dangy beater (phonetically.) Now, they've got another name for that now, I guess.
Q1:Well now, so that's over and you're in California.
Mr. Hamilton:No. I came from a - let's see now, (Inaudible) - see, I can't think of the other name - I was in New Guinea I can't -
Q1:You were in New Guinea? My daddy was there. He's had malaria ever since.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. But I didn't catch. But I can't recall the name of the island was I in. The New Guinea group. And then I'm lucky I'm blessed. It was about 15,000 soldiers, hear this story, you're going to like this. They put the names in a hat, and they was fighting like crazy over there, and they drawed my hat out of the hat. And I was coming home. On the way home, and I was delayed three times. I started - one time they had a lot of wounded, well that's lately, then I flew into a place called Gulla Gull (phonetically), I don't know, (Inaudible) this island, and I came back on the PT boat. That's the boat that landed in water, and they called amphibious boats. Then I came back to Los Negroes, and then I got ready to go - I got my bag all ready. And then another group of soldiers came in with wounded. I got delayed then. I was late by about maybe two months coming home. Then on the way home, and I was almost home, and all of a sudden, they said, alert, alert, alert, alert. I think it was eight or ten days. The Japanese had surrendered. I was two days out of San Francisco. Hear what I said girl? I was two days out of San Francisco, and I got in, and I got a discharge at Fort McPherson, Georgia (phonetically).
Q1:You got what?
Mr. Hamilton:My discharge at Fort McPherson, in Georgia.
Q1:In Georgia?
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes). And I laid around there about a week before I got out of there. Some of the soldiers there. Then I came to Tennessee, I lived in Tennessee for about four years there.
Q1:Now, you were from Johnson City, or where?
Mr. Hamilton:Johnson City.
Q1:That's the prettiest town in Tennessee. How old were you by this time?
Mr. Hamilton:Well, I was thirty-six. Thirty-six I think.
Q1:Did you join the Army or were you drafted?
Mr. Hamilton:They taken me. I was drafted out of New York, and I was in - I think it was in May - May. I was in the first draft calls. And I went to Fort Dix, I went to Fort Jade. That's where I was drafted and joined the armed forces, in Fort Jade, New York. Then I went to Fort Dix for three days. Then I went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, with the red clay hills. And we was there for about, I think it was four or five weeks, then we went down to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. It was target practice. Now, here's the story. Before that, we was in - in North Carolina, we was drilling. (Inaudible). Had sticks for guns.
Q1:They don't work very well, do they?
Mr. Hamilton:That's what we had. We walked all through Southern Pines. Do you hear that place Southern Pines?
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:I walked all through there. Just walked. Just walked. We walked. We walked. You had your canteen, you had your guns. They would give you lunch. They give you lunch. Finally, we went down to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina to target practice. This was anti-aircraft outfit I was in now. They had the big guns. We got - we had guns up - down there. And I used to pull the target. There was a lot of Alabama boys and Mississippi boys. They knew all about water. I never knew very much about water. And Abbey (Inaudible) boy couldn't read or write too good, you know. (Inaudible) the old captain said to me, said, hey you. And I said, what's up doc? Just like that. He said, why you so much different from the rest of the guys. And I said, damned if I know. He said, you talk different. And I looked at him and said we all talk the same flat language, you know, like so and so and so and so and so. And he said, you know anything about a boat? Driving? I said, nope. But I wouldn't mind trying to drive a boat. So they give me this job pulling the target. That's the little thing they shoot at. Well, I had to practice for four days before I could pull the target. Four days. Every day. We'd do it from Myrtle Beach, down to Charleston to get the boat. Every day. Four days, I finally learned how to use this big old boat, you know. It was like a - (Inaudible) it was like a motor boat, (Inaudible) in the water. It was sort of like a PT boat, but it wasn't no PT boat. It was a kind of heavy boat, like (Inaudible) on it. So I pulled a target behind it. Six weeks, it was hot. We were shooting for six weeks. And finally, we got ready to come back to Fort Bragg, we came on back to Fort Bragg. And I was getting out of the Army. Like all over twenty-nine was getting out of the army. And I had done signed up and everything. I had signed up. I got my little pay. And that weekend I went down to Raleigh, North Carolina and had a good time. I was going home the next - in a few days. I was going back to New York. You know. Then I had a good time drinking old south beer. Then about 2:00 in the morning, here come this thing blowing a horn, blowing. Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And I said, where in the hell is Pearl Harbor. How do you like that.
Q1:Good question.
Mr. Hamilton:And I said, just like that, you know. I know (Inaudible) like Germany and France, and England (Inaudible). And I had heard of Australia, but I never paid much attention. And Spain. I always wanted to go to Spain. I always wanted to go to Morocco. I always liked Spain. (Inaudible) was Spain about (Inaudible). And I always wanted to see it. Be there. See, they never give Balboa credit for discovering America, they say he discovered America. Have you heard that?
Q1:That's a secret though. That would ruin everything.
Mr. Hamilton:Have you ever heard that?
Q1:I've heard it, but (Inaudible) -
Mr. Hamilton:Anyway, he spent a lot of money, or something like that. But I - this is history, just think about it, you know. And anyway, I went on back to Fort Bragg. That morning everybody - everybody, and got loaded that same day. And started out - and stopped at Blacksburg down here, overnight. And two or three boys got lost. They were directing traffic, you know, and they (Inaudible), it was cold. And anyways, they come on up, and come around Richmond, and went on to Philadelphia.
Q1:Well, now, speaking of that, when they noticed you were different from those southern boys, had you had a better little education in Johnson City than those southern boys had had?
Mr. Hamilton:Oh, probably I had. What do you mean, I had -
Q1:Like a better school.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Yes. No. It wasn't that much a better school. Okay, I - when you read and write, old people (Inaudible), you know, and I used to stammer. Coming back to me now. I got burned here about a year, (Inaudible) white guy, and it kind of affected my voice. I - I - I stammer a little bit now. But I used to stammer. And I never had very good friends, 'cause they used to make fun of me. And then old lady started telling me, say, buster, I used to have long hair, real long hair. And so I never had a haircut 'til I left home. You know, til I went to Washington. But I had real, real, long hair. And I was grey headed.
Q1:Even young?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. I was - all the way. I had a grey spot. It was the first place I got bald.
Q1:Oh, my word.
Mr. Hamilton:The first - but anyway, after I got over my stammering part, and I - I was a - start talking slow, and she forgot me, and then I went to Washington and I practiced, you know, talking slow. And I got out of - grew out of that.
Q1:You know what, that should help me. You know, I talk way too loud, you've probably noticed that, and someone said to me, this is verbal rape, because I talk so fast and loud. And if you could learn to overcome a stammer, I should be able to learn -
Mr. Hamilton:But anyway, I was - overcomed it - but it - it came back - come back to me when I got burned. But anyway, I went on to Philadelphia, and we stayed at the Navy yard. (Inaudible) the Navy yard. That's - we got there about the 12th of December, and it was cold and ice. It was cold. See, I was used to the cold weather because, see, I had been in New York. Them other guys, you see them shiver, shiver, and they said to me, said, it don't bother you - I said no, I said I'm kind of used to it, because it's a damp cold, you know, it never bothered me. So we stayed there til about April or May, and then went to California. I went on (Inaudible) - ain't like that hot weather out there. Load that train out there, and (Inaudible) in Los Angeles, a place called Burbank. And we were guarding a great big airplane factory, Lockheed. (Inaudible) Saying please. But I never heard of them saying please. I - you know they stayed there, and we stayed (Inaudible) two months (Inaudible). And we got our marching orders, who went to Burbank - I think it was Burbank. I ain't got it right. I think it was Burbank. That's where I was shipped out from. And that was in August. I went down to San Francisco and got on a ship. And I got a sister out there, (Inaudible).
Q1:Were you married at this time?
Mr. Hamilton:No.
Q1:Well, now how did you get -
Mr. Hamilton:I'm going too fast. Here's how I met my wife, now. See, I lived in New York, and I knew her. I knew some of her kin people in New York, I met them in New York. And I used to live uptown on 52nd street, way up there. And I met this friend, and they were kin to her. So anyway, I got in the Army, and she come down and see me. She was one of my girlfriends. She came down to see me, and so she bought Gertrude out to the Navy base to see to see me. It was cold then too. Then after that, we had dinner and messed around. She wasn't making but $21 a month.
Q1:In the Army?
Mr. Hamilton:(Inaudible). And then I met, (Inaudible). That was in '42. And I - that must've been in August or July. (Inaudible). Then I kept on messing around looking - catching - talking to her, talking to her, talking to her. Maybe about a month, you know, (Inaudible). And some way or another - we didn't get married then, now. And I said, well, I said (Inaudible) talking about marriage. And I said, (Inaudible) talk on, talk on, talk on. And finally, I got ready to go overseas, I said, well, I said, if you wait for me, and I get back, I said, I'll marry you. That's right cute, you know. And listen this word now. (Inaudible). And she waited for me for four years. And we had a lovely, lovely relationship. And anyway, she waited, waited, waited, waited. So I came back, and I was sick when I came back. I had - I had some - some kind of bone trouble with my neck. I couldn't turn around. (Inaudible) look back that way. Then I had to turn around. So we down in the country then. Her mother was (Inaudible). So I went down to - down to (Inaudible). You ever hear that word?
Q1:No.
Mr. Hamilton:That's hospital. Government Hospital down there. I went down there for a month. That was in February. And I stayed down there, (Inaudible) treatments. Treatments every day, treatments, treatments. So finally, it got so I could turn around. I could go all the way around. And finally - so finally, I came back home. And back in (Inaudible), we lived in Louisa. And then we came here.
Q1:Well, now, how did you get to Louisa though. That's so rare. After all these travels -
Mr. Hamilton:That's what my wife - that's what my wife was home in Louisa.
Q1:Oh, now. That's how you got to here.
Mr. Hamilton:That's how I got here. So we met in Philadelphia, and we got married in Philadelphia. And she was coming home. I didn't want no part (Inaudible) north that way.
Q1:No. No.
Mr. Hamilton:And so we came back this way, and we came up to Charlottesville. And they were - been here - been here ever since.
Q1:Ever since. What year was that? What year did you come to Charlottesville?
Mr. Hamilton:I came here April 1946. I came here doing - assumed it was different. Assumed - everybody was different then. You know what I mean. They were different people. They wore different clothes. Everything was neat. Everything you see neat. Have you heard that before?
Q1:Yes. Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:I ain't kidding you. It was neat. The black neighborhood, workers all. They had ties on. They looked good.
Q1:Not today.
Mr. Hamilton:No. Not today.
Q1:That's too bad. Well, now where was your first house in Charlottesville? Where did you live?
Mr. Hamilton:You know, I lived over on 6th Street. That's over by Jefferson School. And I stayed over there. All three of my childrens borned over there. And then God spared me. I bought this lot and I started building this house. I couldn't borrow a penny. Couldn't borrow a penny. I started from the ground and dug it out.
Q1:Where were you working now?
Mr. Hamilton:I working down at Ix's that time then.
Q1:Where? Oh, Ix's.
Mr. Hamilton:I working down there.
Q1:What did you do?
Mr. Hamilton:I was a loom cleaner. What you call, you know, you cleaned them big old machines. You ever been in there?
Q1:No.
Mr. Hamilton:Well you can't (Inaudible) go in there.
Q1:Okay. How much do they pay?
Mr. Hamilton:Don't laugh.
Q1:I will.
Mr. Hamilton:Seventy-five cents an hour. Then all the sudden they passed a law, they paid a dollar and a quarter and hour. And then I - I got laid off down Ix's. I didn't get fired. I got laid off. Here's what happened. (Inaudible). My wife give it to me about ten or fifteen years later. She went down there and applied for a job. They weren't hiring black women down there then. And I got laid off. And they (Inaudible). I didn't pay attention. (Inaudible) offset mechanic. And so anyway, I messed around, I started doing day's work. And a plumber, old man Taylor lived up on 15th Street. He offered me a job. And I wanted to go on the G.I. Bill, plumbing. He said, I'll get you on the G.I. Bill. And I went on and I worked for anybody. Two months. Why they ain't had a chance to fill the papers out yet? And didn't have a chance to fill the papers out yet. For the G.I. Bill. So I went to VepCo and talked to Hill there, and applied for a job. I got a job as a janitor there. And I worked there. Used to work at night. And you had to work in the daytime. I used to do carpenter, plumbing. Just about anything. And made it. So I stayed there for (Inaudible) years. And I getting sick a couple of times. You know, I had the - I wasn't sick, I had the (Inaudible). I had a big operation. And then I had a finger I had to reset. (Inaudible) there. That. And I saw that girl, I'd been blessed. You know what I said? I - I been blessed. (Inaudible). And anyway, I made it though - I'd say I got thirty-one years with VepCo. I got along there pretty good. Nobody ever bothered me 'cause I was too outspoken. They said I was nasty. You know me. Anyway, it's funny about people. This guy say to me, said Mac - I said, yes. They called me Mac. He said, where are you from? I said Tennessee, why? He said, you don't talk like a southerner. I said, why? I said, what's the difference between me and you? He said, you don't (Inaudible). You don't know how to treat white people. I said, Figures, I growed up around them. You know, you know, where I came from, a black lived here, a white lived - we had a lot of land when I was a kid. We had a lot of land. And black and white people used to live on this place, and they would sharecrop. It was hard back during the depression. Anyway it wasn't no different. If you had something over here, they'd bring you something over here. They had some more, they'd bring some of theirs. And I said, what you mean? I said, I was raised up around them. I said, it wasn't no different down there. But I said, what's changed - what's changed the solution? He said, what? I said, well, integration (Inaudible).
Q1:I know that thing.
Mr. Hamilton:And he said I didn't know how to talk to white people. I said, what you mean? What you - what you mean? He said you yes and no. I said, damn right. Excuse me. And I said, that's the way I was raised. I raised my children the same way. Yes and no. Yes and no. People down the street. They go Yes, sir, No, sir. I taught my children yes and no. What it was, you answered. And I said, somebody say Mr. So and So, and I said, you call him what you want to call him. If his name is Harry or John, or what - that's what you call him. They look at my daughters. That's the way they brought up.
Q1:Did your family own the land in Tennessee, you owned it?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. We had a whole lot of land. But it was kind of like a family. Like a - all family.
Q1:Oh, All the families.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Everybody had it.
Q1:And there were white sharecroppers and everybody. Everybody was poor together?
Mr. Hamilton:Poor together, but they worked together. (Inaudible). They you'd hear all this raping.
Q1:And what year did you buy this lot?
Mr. Hamilton:I bought this lot in, must've been '50 - no must've '48 or '49 I think. There was a old house on here.
Q1:Oh, there was?
Mr. Hamilton:Old house. Leaning.
Q1:You tore it down. Do you remember what it looked like?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Old. If you had been out here about a year, they tore the house down, tore down two houses right there. And wasn't no basement, it was just flat up on rock. And used to be a garden - I used to have a garden all the way back in the back, all the way down there. A creek down - a creek down in there. It don't run when it gets hot weather. But in the winter time, it runs. It used to get water. People lived on that side of the road over there used to get water over there at one time.
Q1:Well now, what I really liked was when you told me that you were working there at VepCo, and you didn't want to push a broom your whole life. Now, tell me what you did.
Mr. Hamilton:What happened, I was a janitor out there, in the mail.
Q1:In the mill? There's a mill?
Mr. Hamilton:No. I was a janitor, and took care of the mail. And anyway, during that time, there wasn't no - wasn't many black people out there. I was the only black out there. I was - I was the only black out there. No, no, no, no. (Inaudible), he's dead. And then I used to do that. Then (Inaudible) file an agreement, you know, hiring blacks. And finally, they called me in - what you call the woman that does all the typing when you come to a court.
Q1:Yes. The clerk stenographer.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Anyway, they was asking me questions, you know, come in there, and this friend of mine wouldn't come in with me. He didn't want to answer questions. And said, they's talking, said have you ever been offered any other kind of a job? I said, no. If you had been offered another job, would you have taken it? Well sure. And that's (Inaudible). So they had to pay me for back pay for about three or four years.
Q1:Really?
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes). Now, I never counted money, for I needed the money.
Q1:Before you got it.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. I was - I was building - (Inaudible). And my gal was - (Inaudible). I retired ten years. That happened about twenty years ago, I guess.
Q1:Now, why - why did they go to court? Why did you go to court? Because -
Mr. Hamilton:Down in Bremo Bluff. That's where the power plant is. They had an agreement down there about not hiring any black down there. All black down there - if they worked down there, they worked on coal, and didn't have no kind of position. And that's what - that started right there then.
Q1:I see. In other words they weren't hiring blacks, although they said they were going to hire blacks.
Mr. Hamilton:They's going - (Inaudible)
Q1:But you didn't work at Bremo Bluff. You worked here.
Mr. Hamilton:I worked here. But that's all the -
Q1:Same thing.
Mr. Hamilton:That's all the same company. (Indicates yes).
Q1:Okay. So, so then what happened? But they made you still be a janitor?
Mr. Hamilton:No. They gave me a job outside. They - they would classify me, I was just a laborer out there. But I got - I got - I got the pay.
Q1:But they kept you being a laborer?
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes). What they call a helper, so, so and so. But they didn't - I - I got along, but they never bothered me. But they was afraid to ask me to do anything. I'm skinnier. The supervisor and all. They was afraid to ask me to do anything. And I would go to work with them. They - they would tell me to. But I would go out - I worked, you know. I didn't have to do no work, but I go, (Inaudible). So if anything come up, go wrong, I would tell them about it. You know, something, you know, like - like that. Like when overtime. We'd get the overtime, I'd tell them about - we didn't know. And I says - I said, I work here don't I?
Q1:Well, you know, you had said that your wife applied for job down there. Did she ever get another job, somewhere else?
Mr. Hamilton:No. She went to work at the University. My baby was - I think she was there - somebody was taking care of our babies for us. We had two children real close together, and she went to work at the University. She worked up there thirty-one years.
Q1:What did she do over there?
Mr. Hamilton:She was a maid.
Q1:Well, now, then what happened? How did you raise your daughters to be - there was this - they were the groundbreakers in the integration? Tell me what happened, 'cause I was - long before my time.
Mr. Hamilton:Well, anyway, they had always - didn't want - we had quite a few black people that wanted to be Mr. Tom, Mr. Dick, and Mr. Harry, but they was afraid to move forward. You know, they was always kind of checking that. Eugene Weed (phonetically), but don't call his name.
Q1:(Inaudible). Don't worry, we know not to call his name ever. It's still going. Okay. Good. (Inaudible). We don't mention him. Don't worry. We have a saying, off the record. We know about that.
Mr. Hamilton:So anyway, what happened - so his wife was a school teacher, and she wouldn't never participate in anything. They were colored. And she wouldn't join in anything 'cause of her job. And so my wife, she - now, she wasn't educated, my wife, but she did a lot of studying. The only thing, she never did finish high school. She tried. She got sick. But she could - she could - she could - she could mingle with the best of them. And she knowed all about politics because her father taught her. And her father was a preacher, ordained minister.
Q1:And what was his name?
Mr. Hamilton:His name was Reverend James Michie.
Q1:Reverend James Michie.
Mr. Hamilton:Reverend James Michie. He - he died before I got to see - he died in '41.
Q1:And he was from Louisa?
Mr. Hamilton:He was from Louisa. And we still own the place where we own down there.
Q1:Oh, really?
Mr. Hamilton:That's where she's buried at, down there.
Q1:Oh, and her father is buried there too?
Mr. Hamilton:And her mother, and her uncle too.
Q1:Well, is it a farm kind of place?
Mr. Hamilton:No. It's done growed up now. It's growed up. That's what he used to farm.
Q1:But now what is it? A subdivision or what?
Mr. Hamilton:No. No. Just land.
Q1:Oh, just for open land. Nobody's farming it?
Mr. Hamilton:Nobody farmed it. They farm up from it there.
Q1:Well, now why don't they farm it anymore? She doesn't have any brothers or anything?
Mr. Hamilton:She was an only child. She was an only child.
Q1:So your daughters will get that land?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. (Inaudible).
Q2:They gone. So you have three daughters?
Mr. Hamilton:I got three gals.
Q2:Oh, right. I have five girls in my family.
Mr. Hamilton:Oh, you had five girls.
Q1:You're one of five.
Mr. Hamilton:That's the oldest one on the corner right there, and that's the baby right there. Right here. That's the baby. And this the middle one. She's in Santa Barbara. She - she - she - she's a photographer.
Q1:And what's her name? The photographer?
Mr. Hamilton:Gloria Diana Hamilton.
Q1:What?
Mr. Hamilton:Gloria Diana Hamilton.
Q1:Gloria -
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes)
Q1:Dinah?
Mr. Hamilton:Diana.
Q1:Hamilton.
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes).
Q1:And where did she go to college?
Mr. Hamilton:She went to University. She went to Tennessee. Now, don't (Inaudible) went to Tennessee. And then she went to the University of Michigan.
Q1:Her graduate school?
Mr. Hamilton:- from Louisiana, so and so (Inaudible). They asked for three people. Four people. It's eight to ten people (Inaudible).
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:Eight to ten. Up there on Bockler Hill (Phonetically), where the hospital is, I went up there (Inaudible) when I first come here. You'd see a house up there with about fifteen or twenty people living in one house. It's the same way in the public house, and they kind of tightened down on them, so it used to be (Inaudible) had his car on the street. And all the people - the neighbors couldn't find a place to park. So one night, they started towing the cars away (Inaudible). I - and they was here in the public house. Some people ain't going to own nothing (Inaudible). As long as they live. And they going to be on welfare as long as they live. You heard that before? Black and whites the same way. You go to the grocery store, you see somebody come in there, you don't see what her car. Pay for all the groceries out of these here things. Paid for all the groceries out of it. They they got the two crates of beer and a bottle of wine, they go in the hip pocket -
Q1:Get money.
Mr. Hamilton:(Inaudible). You go out, see what kind of car they got in, they got a good looking car out there. Who paid for that.
Q1:Well, they become slaves to the state. They're the slaves to the master.
Mr. Hamilton:What I like, what the state did, and New York was the first - no - Illinois was the first one did it. They figured out, like, they didn't have to take care of all these disturbed people. They didn't feel like they had to take care of them. So Congress made a pass, and it turned all the people out of the institutes. You hear that? All the people out of the institutes, what you call, the state didn't have to pay for it. So now, Virginia gets something like that too, because they close down the hospital over here. What is it - over at Staunton? They're talking about closing that down over there.
Q1:Yes. I know what you're talking about.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. They talking about closing that down, getting all of the disturbed people out of it. But some of those people ain't disturbed. Some of them get a free hand, they stay there. But up in Illinois, they closed down all them institutions. And in the city, they got places - the city take care of their own, and the county take care of their own.
Q1:So did you build this house yourself, you say?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. I did it with my hands.
Q1:Wow.
Mr. Hamilton:I was two years and a half building it. And all the timber come off the White's farm down there.
Q1:Oh, my, my. That's so amazing.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. I was two years building it.
Q1:You had to go out there and haul that in?
Mr. Hamilton:One of my good kin people sawed it, carried it to the mill, and brought it up here for me. It was green. It was lumber. I tell you how God been with me gal. Excuse me calling you gal.
Q1:It's okay.
Mr. Hamilton:I got burned out. I got scars. I got scars. And (Inaudible) back.
Q1:When did that happen?
Mr. Hamilton:It happened the same year my gal was (Inaudible) - was finishing high school.
Q1:Well, how did you get burned?
Mr. Hamilton:I had a furnace in the basement. It was a coal - it was a coal furnace. And it backfired and blowed the door, and it burned all up here. And I built it - built it back. Now, don't ask what year that was. I ain't no good - how'd you get in here? You go through the basement door. Come in the basement door.
Q1:So the house didn't burn down completely?
Mr. Hamilton:No. Everything - just burned everything up here. Everything.
Q1:Well, now, I want to know one thing about up and down the streets here. Like, your daughter owned one of those houses on Ridge Street. About how much did she pay for that? When?
Mr. Hamilton:Now, she had that thing about ten years. (Inaudible). She had to have it remodeled. She had to do inside as apartments. I had the slightest idea what she - what she paid for it.
Q1:Well, now, what about the street? Are these white slum-landlords who own these ugly looking buildings, that look like - the new buildings that look like they're falling - they're brand new, but they just look a mess?
Mr. Hamilton:Now, Otis Lee owns a - owns a couple on Ridge Street.
Q1:Yes. I know him. His are historic buildings, but they're -
Mr. Hamilton:And what happened. This white house up here, white on (Inaudible), and the rest - rest houses out through there, are black owned on most of them going out that way. On the houses. And the black had bought this development, all that Ridge Street there they bought, and living in it. Those are private homes.
Q1:Oh, they are.
Mr. Hamilton:The duplexes.
Q1:The ones - well, now, you know, there's some - on this side of the street there's a bunch of duplexes that have a brick firewall in between the duplexes, and so those were built to be cheap kind of houses, but I guess people could afford it.
Mr. Hamilton:That's on up this way.
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's what they built. And I couldn't even tell you how old they was, but (Inaudible). They was built when I was out of town. Go out of town and stay three weeks or a month, and I'd come back, and there'd be (Inaudible).
Q1:Where would you be gone?
Mr. Hamilton:West Virginia.
Q1:Do you have relatives in West Virginia?
Mr. Hamilton:No. I had to go up there and work in the winter time.
Q1:Oh, you'd go work in West Virginia.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. VepCo had a big plant up there called Masdarn (Phonetically). And I'd go up there and work three or four weeks, come back and stay a week, and go back again.
Q1:And they had a big plant up there called what?
Mr. Hamilton:Masdarn West Virginia. Right on top of the mountain. And all they used coal and oil.
Q1:So they sent you out two or three weeks at a time?
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes).
Q2:So, do a lot of your neighbors around here, are they the same people -
Mr. Hamilton:No. Everything is - (Inaudible) across the street there, they're renting. I believe (Inaudible), they're renters. The little boy there, over there, he's a smart little boy, I like that guy. Now, he bought that, and the next door is renters. Black guy owns that. And the next house, that's owners. And the next two houses, they're renters. And on down the street is owners. And the big house - that was a beauty before they messed it up. That big house down there. You see it right down there?
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:When I first came here, that was a big gal. That was - that crazy house down there. That was a beauty.
Q1:Well now, what was that green house? Was there -
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. That greenish - that green house. Valley-view greenhouse.
Q1:Vendervere?
Mr. Hamilton:Valley-view greenhouse.
Q1:Valley-view. Well now, how did most black people in the old days - I mean, I'm talking about after the second World War, how did they make a living?
Mr. Hamilton:Any way - there was a lot of work around here. (Inaudible) much. You - you - you - you - you mean that - you mean that after - after the first World War?
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:Now, anyway, that was before my time.
Q1:(Inaudible) after the second World War.
Mr. Hamilton:Anyway, it was - what happened, a lot of old people owned the houses. Owned the land. A lot of black people used to own all that land back in here. You know, then back in the hollow area is a place called Raymond Road down there, that, and then go out towards West High, all white live out that way. And you take on Oak and Dig Street, all that's black in there. They was railroad workers.
Q1:Oh, railroad workers.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Railroad workers (Inaudible) -
Q1:The blacks could work on the railroads.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes.
Q1:Yes. The railroad is a big way to make money.
Mr. Hamilton:What was here when I came here, (Inaudible), and used to be a - up there where the hospital is now, the new hospital, that was a foundry there, a lot of black people worked there at the foundry. And the city made their own gas. And what else was it? It used to be a brickyard right down in the hollow down here. Down where the Tonsler Park is. There used to be a brickyard down there. Now, honeybunch, that's about the most I can -
Q1:Well, now what about this gospel hill? Tell me what that was. That's where the U.V.A. hospital is. What was that before?
Mr. Hamilton:That was a slum. That was like south 6th Street down there. All blacks lived up here. And we had houses on both sides of the street. Two cars couldn't park - two cars couldn't pass down the street. It was like a gravel road. You run all the way to the railroad tracks, and you turn around and come back up. But everybody had a car. And then what - then the University had the a lot of people. Then you had the fraternity houses. Wooden houses. See, most black people back in here when I come here, they was - coogers (phonetically), they would (Inaudible), and up Rugby Road up through there, a lot of them fraternity houses. I actually passed - I used to cross over the bridge up to the red light, all those was fraternity houses. And when you get to the bridge down here where the apartment is, used to be a big ball field right down there. It's apartments down there now. But that's at Rugby Road across the bridge. Then back in there, he ain't nobody. And so, why can't I came in to work, and I'd have - see, my wife was the brains. I used to work all the time. Saturdays and Sundays too. I used to work, wasn't making that much, wouldn't make no money.
Q1:Well, now, did your daughters, they graduated. But like how, by the time they graduated - they were just a few blacks in the class, or was it -
Mr. Hamilton:Let's see. It was like five or six in there. They actually went - started going to white schools anyway. And a lot of them dropped out.
Q1:A lot of the whites dropped out?
Mr. Hamilton:Blacks - black -
Q1:The blacks dropped out. But yours stuck it out.
Mr. Hamilton:But that baby daughter there, she (Inaudible). Hear what I said?
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:One time she was speaking out, I told her somebody had three or four degrees. Now, now, now, you coming - coming, lay down -
Q1:My lord. How many did you have?
Mr. Hamilton:I have two.
Q1:Right there. They are sweet. There they are. How come that one's so little?
Mr. Hamilton:He's a cocker spaniel.
Q1:Oh, and this one's a -
Mr. Hamilton:He's a English spaniel.
Q1:A what?
Mr. Hamilton:That's a English spaniel.
Q1:English spaniel. They both black and white?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. This is a French/English spaniel. They're different now.
Q1:Well, they are. You can tell that. Well, you've had an interesting life, Mr. Hamilton.
Mr. Hamilton:I've lived it. I've lived it.
Q1:Now, tell me, your wife being from Louisa - this is interesting since we are in Virginia, she - her daddy was a minister, she was an only child, they had a farm. Do you know anything about her background back beyond that? I mean, like her grand-daddy and her great grand-daddy?
Mr. Hamilton:I don't know. All them had passed. Now she had to walk seven miles to school. And the school's up on the - they tore that school down now. And I've been (Inaudible) my baby daughter was here from Chicago down at the graveyard. And she went to school, and they just finished high school, that's why she looking (Inaudible). (Inaudible). Her eyesight was failing. (Inaudible).
Q1:She had a lot of (Inaudible). It sounds like maybe, she learned a lot from her father.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Her father taught her. Her father told her - said daughter, said always pay your taxes. And see, her mother was a diabetic for years. She was diabetic. They raised pretty good stuff, and the old man raised tobacco one year, and momma sold a turkey, (Inaudible). And they were able to buy a horse - a mule, and he would work one crop, and he would die before the next crop come in. I had a birthday last month - the 27th, and my wife's birthday is tomorrow.
Q1:Oh, it is. How old was she when she passed away?
Mr. Hamilton:She was seventy-eight. No wait. She had a birthday, seventy-eight. Let me count here. Now, here, now, see. We'd be the same age for a while. Now, let's just get that straight now. She be dead two years coming up the sixth - the end of this month. And (Inaudible). Let's see now. I would be - I'm seventy nine. She'd be eighty, her birthday. I think I got it right.
Q1:Okay.
Mr. Hamilton:And she was born 1915, and I was born in 1914. That's right.
Q1:Well, now tell me, did you know of your Tennessee background? Were your people before you always from around there?
Mr. Hamilton:No. They was Carolinians.
Q1:Oh, North Carolinians.
Mr. Hamilton:South Carolina.
Q1:South Carolina.
Mr. Hamilton:Some of them was North Carolina, some of them was South Carolina, but I don't know much about them. I never was around home much. I was raised up. I come out of a family of nine, and I stayed with my - my aunt - my mother's aunt - my mother's sister, and I stayed with another aunt - my father's sister. So I stayed uptown. I was a city boy. And I never know much about them. And it's funny, I don't know anything much about my brothers and sisters. 'Cause I left home in 1935. I was a big old boy.
Q1:Were you the oldest?
Mr. Hamilton:No. I had another brother older than me.
Q1:You were the second oldest.
Mr. Hamilton:I was the second oldest. No. There was a girl in between there.
Q1:Okay.
Mr. Hamilton:So I didn't know very much about them.
Q1:Did you - so you went to town, and you went to school then. Did you go to high school?
Mr. Hamilton:I went to high school. I went (Inaudible) I think I went to the eighth grade because times was hard then. Times was hard then.
Q1:So you went to the eighth grade? Well, how did you get yourself to get away from Tennessee to go up there in New York and all?
Mr. Hamilton:Oh, I was in Washington. Girl, I been everywheres.
Q1:(Laughter)
Mr. Hamilton:Let me tell you about some of my traveling history during the depression time. I been in jail in Cincinnati for ten days. Only stayed five days. But I was in the - and I was in jail in Madison, West Virginia ten days.
Q1:Madison, West Virginia?
Mr. Hamilton:Madison, West Virginia, that's where the state penitentiary is.
Q1:Oh my God.
Mr. Hamilton:I was in there for ten days, and I wasn't even locked up. And snow that deep girl. Then the jailer said I could go downtown and shovel snow.
Q1:They just let you go.
Mr. Hamilton:I go - go down and shovel snow, and I would cook for the old man and woman. And I would cook. And I was eating. And they were just like - what are - I got ready to leave, yes, you're not going are you? So? Then I got in jail in Dayton, Ohio for ten days and a brand new jail. Just had built it. And they called it New Chicago. And I talked to some people over that's sitting there. (Inaudible) going to school there, yes. I know where that is. I got stuck in jail in there.
Q1:Now where was this? I missed that.
Mr. Hamilton:At -
Q1:Dayton, Ohio?
Mr. Hamilton:- Dayton, Ohio. (Indicates yes.)
Q1:Now why did they keep putting you in jail?
Mr. Hamilton:I was trying trespass - I was - doing the first time was hard. I was trespassing on railroad property. So the railroad - the City would lock you up before the railway has to pay for the road. See here's another good one for you. And I was running out of time. I was in Washington, and the job was hard. It was hard. So I said, I'll go up and see my sister in Fort Munford, New Jersey (phonetically). So I had a little taste of money. I went on and got to Philadelphia and went on up to Philadelphia. And people would you pick you up and ride you on the highway then.
Q1:Yes. Black people or just white?
Mr. Hamilton:Black or white people.
Q1:Why take -
Mr. Hamilton:People were different back in them - people were different. So got on up to Philadelphia, and I got on this train going to Atlantic City, New Jersey. And this train picked water on the fly. It didn't have a stop to go on. And I was behind the hedges and the water got - I got wringing wet. When the train got to Altantic City and I got off this train, you know, this is the sinner's train. I got off this train and here come the police. I was wringing wet. I had a little hand bag in my hand, and they say you come on and go with me. Put me in jail all and everything. (Inaudible) and I stayed out all night and tried to froze afterwards. Didn't give me no breakfast the next morning. This is right cute. The next morning they got me in the - got me in a big old car and carried me to the bridge and said you go that way.
Q1:Oh, my God.
Mr. Hamilton:You know what I mean?
Q1:Yes. Now where was this jail? This was somewhere else?
Mr. Hamilton:That was Atlantic City.
Q1:Atlantic City?
Mr. Hamilton:Atlantic City, New Jersey. Yes. You go that way. And I went on down to see my sister and I found her, in Fort Munford, New Jersey. I stayed with her that night. So I went up town, carried up to Long Back, New Jersey and she got me a room with some people. I found a job the next day. I worked in the hospital. Munford Hospital. (Inaudible) big University now. It's a big hospital. Right on the beach like. (Inaudible). So I've been around and around, honey. I've been beat and I run. But I had a pretty good life. Pretty good life.
Q1:Well where - did you have any ghastly experiences of the white folks being really mean and terrible to you?
Mr. Hamilton:No. No. I didn't -
Q1:Just unjust?
Mr. Hamilton:No, girl. You - some people bring it on themselves. Now I've been treated good in the - you know, along with - your appearance, see. That makes a difference in people. When they look at you they'll talk with you. Now one place I was, in the - I believe it was in West Virginia. I come down with - I come out of West Virginia going to Cedarville, Ohio. And this guy said to me, he said, what you doing out here all clean? You want to be - (Inaudible) - you supposed to be a hobo. I said there's water running alongside the road, though. And he said, you want a job? And I said what doing? He said dumping coal on a (Inaudible). I said, no. You know, they was big in coal. No. I don't want that job.
Q1:That was smart. You might still be there.
Mr. Hamilton:I didn't want that job, so, then I was going back to Pittsburg, then. In Cedarville, Ohio, the next thing you going to Pennsylvania. And I went on to Pittsburg and I got sick there. That was in '40. That was in '39. I got sick. I had a case of money in my pocket. So I worked my way on back to New York and I went to the hospital. I had to - I had this sinus trouble but it closed up my nostrils, you know? And I couldn't breathe. And I stayed drunk all the time. And I carried - went to Fairview Hospital and they operated on me, cut some airway down there.
Q1:Oh. They did?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. That little bit of mark right there. That's it.
Q1:That's because of your sinus?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes.
Q1:But did you drink because you were pain all the time?
Mr. Hamilton:No. I was dizzy. I wasn't drinking nothing.
Q1:Oh. You were drunk from dizziness.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. No. I'd fall out. You know, I'd fall out. And then I went to Fairview Hospital and I was there, if you read the history, you'd think that - listen, back in '40, the Empire State Building shook a little bit.
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:Did you ever hear of that?
Q1:Yes.
Mr. Hamilton:I was at Fairview Hospital then.
Q1:Oh my gosh. And they operated on your sinus?
Mr. Hamilton:They operated on my sinus. They couldn't - I was scarred from right there to up there. I never had no trouble for a long time. But on the - this German doctor operated on me.
Q1:Isn't that funny? A German doctor during the war.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. During the war.
Q2:A little scary.
Q1:Now the interesting thing was that you didn't have a chip on your shoulder when you undertook this integration. You know, so many, not myself, but many white people think that only black people who were real bitter would go to all that trouble to integrate. I mean, you know, you had to go to a lot of trouble to get all this stuff done. So what is your attitude? Why did you go to all this extra trouble?
Mr. Hamilton:Well I wanted my children to have a better education than I had, a better school. And my wife - we had the same program.
Q1:Yes. You had the same program.
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. In other words you had to work things out. That's what - now honey bunch, he gets things going, a lot of black people back out on him. White people are the same way. And they went up to the schools. He went to school way down in - had a meeting up there one day and the wives had the children there. And I went up there with - I didn't go inside that time. And they told him, you know, your children are going to be hurt by the integration of schools. She said, just let them be hurt. And said, they had to grow up. And then another meeting, another time, on my job - no. This was on my wife's job. They come to see me after that. And my - and this lady called Miss Fowler and said, Gertrude, there's three white men out there that want to see you. I don't know what they want to see you about. And so Gert didn't know what it was about. So she went on out there and Miss Fowler that was my wife's boss -
Q1:Miss who?
Mr. Hamilton:Miss Fowler. Fowler. Her son was a doctor. And so my wife went on out there. And so they had my wife in the room with these three men. One guy was from the bank across the road from where my wife had borrowed money from, Mr. Acker. He was out there. That bank out on 29 North now. He was one of the men, and the other guys she didn't know. And so told them, what you want to see me about. And so they told her what they wanted to see her about her children getting hurt going to integrated schools.
Q1:They wanted them not to go?
Mr. Hamilton:They wanted not go. And so she looked at them, do all the talking, and she let them do all the talking and so and so and so and so. And she said well, what you all got to say? She said, no, I'll just keep it like it is going because (Inaudible) -
Q1:Because what?
Mr. Hamilton:On with the show.
Q1:On with the show.
Mr. Hamilton:On with the show. And everybody heard her so - and so any way.
Q1:Now this is interesting, now. This was Mr. Acker the banker, and who were the other two men?
Mr. Hamilton:Well she didn't know the other two. But Mr. Acker, but if he didn't retire, he was out there at the bank on 29. Just where -
Q1:Now Mr. and Mrs. Fowler and all they didn't want to fire her because she was doing -
Mr. Hamilton:No. They - they -
Q1:They were not -
Mr. Hamilton:No. They didn't know what it was. They (Inaudible) oh, she sold them. She sold that - I've got some things (Inaudible) and one girl called Burk up there, she laid her card up there where Ms. Fowler could see it and Ms. Fowler said something about it. And she said, Gertrude I'm going to lose my job, and Gertrude said you ought to keep it in your pocket.
Q1:Now let me ask you this. Now Dr. and Ms. Fowler they were not enlightened liberals, or were they? I mean were they just regular, typical, southern white people?
Mr. Hamilton:They were southern white people. They didn't like the program.
Q1:But they like her, so they -
Mr. Hamilton:They - she was outspoken.
Q1:But they stood by her.
Mr. Hamilton:But anyway, went on and got that done. So on my job out there, two people came out there. I didn't know who they were and over there in - you know Lionel Key?
Q1:I don't. But that - I'm not -
Mr. Hamilton:He was Assistant Fire Chief. He came out on my job (Inaudible) I was the janitor then. Lionel Key said three men out there want to see you. I don't know what they want to see you about. I thought that was good. So I went on out to see what they want. And I backed up against the flower box, big old flower box out there in the (Inaudible) - and I leaned up here and I moved it (Inaudible) - so I leaned up there and I said what's this all about. No. I said, what's this program all about. Said, Mr. Hamilton, you know your children are going to be hurt going to integrated schools and so and so and so and so and so and so. I would advise you to try to don't put them in integrated schools, so and so and so and so. And so I (Inaudible) - what he had to say because I heard the children's education. And I said now what you got to say? Well the same thing, it's kind of hard for them to go into a new environment. Now I ain't fanatical about it now. You're going to go into a different environment you know. And I said, that's all you all got to say? Yes. And I stood up and dust off my hands and I said I got something to tell you men. You know, I appreciate you all coming to see me, but I said they're going, and if anything happens to my children the white folks are going to answer to me. And everybody look and never bothered me no more.
Q1:Now where did they do this? Here in your house?
Mr. Hamilton:On my job. Yes. And I said so, and they look at me and I think they said - they said like this, that nigger must be crazy.
Q1:But you - you got along pretty well with people in spite of your - you know, the white people were not ready for you yet, apparently. But you managed to get along with them. I mean they didn't - some of those people out there liked you even though they - at VepCo, even though you were outspoken?
Mr. Hamilton:(Indicates yes.)
Q1:You - I guess you probably told them the answer when you said it's the way a person carries himself?
Mr. Hamilton:The way a person carries himself. Always be - be presentable. And I had a guy one time, he didn't act like - like he knew it. He said to me, he said, Mac, he said where are you from? I said, I'm from down in Tennessee. The guy said where black and whites got along good. And I say ate and killed hogs the same time and have everything going along, and that's where you belong (Inaudible) - he said well, right cute, he said nigger never say that at my table. And I said, I never did want to set at your table. And he thought that thing over, you know? He thought that thing over. Then one day he got hurt. This is right cute. He got hurt. And everybody was around him looking at him, couldn't call no one. That's before they had the rescue squad. Before they had the rescue squad. And I said, you stretch out there. You just stretch out there and just tighten your hands. You be all right in a few minutes. And I said don't let's talk, just be quiet. He come back, Mac, I'm sorry what I said to you. Whether or not he fell and knocked the shit out of him.
Q1:This was this same guy who said that?
Mr. Hamilton:Yes. Yes.
Q1:Well we better get ourselves out.
Mr. Hamilton:Now don't you hurry.
Q1:Actually I do need to go. I have a baby -
Mr. Hamilton:Come here. I'll show you something. In that cart over here. Let me show you something -
BRIEF INTERRUPTION.
(Thereupon this interview was concluded.)

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Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia
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