Race & Place: Oral Histories

Interview of Carlton Andrew Luck, Sr. on October 25, 2001 and November 1, 2001, by Mieka Brand of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)
Biographical Information Born and raised with his four siblings in a small wooden shack in White Hall, Virginia, Reverend Luck moved to Esmont in 1955 after marrying Mrs. Nancy (Ward) Luck. In the interview Reverend Luck recalls key moments in his life, including his service in the U.S. Army and the 13 months he spent in Germany during the Korean War. He describes his experiences working in construction around Charlottesville and being overcome by the Spirit, an experience that led to his religious rebirth. Significantly, Reverend Luck reflects on the ways his life has been formed and his outlook shaped by his being an African-American man living in the South during and after the Jim Crow era. Project Description Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area. Notes About Our Transcription The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. Brackets have been used to indicate additions made to the text upon review by the interviewee. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar.

Ms. Brand:	Interviews at Esmont, Virginia, October 25, 2001. Interviewer: Mieka Brand.
Ms. Brand:	Alright, so it's October 25th, 2001, and I'm speaking to Rev...
Rev. Luck:	Yes, Carlton Andrew Luck, Senior.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. Carlton... Andrew... Luck, Sr... and you're a reverend?
Rev. Luck:	Yes. And associate pastor at this church.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, at this church. Ok. So -- associate pastor?
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	What does that mean?
Rev. Luck:	I'm an assistant to the pastor.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Rev. Luck:	Am I loud enough?
Ms. Brand:	What?
Rev. Luck:	Am I loud enough?
Ms. Brand:	Uh... let me hear. Say something --
Rev. Luck:	I'm the Associate Pastor at this church?
Ms. Brand:	Yes, you're loud enough. (Moves microphone). Here, we can put it here anyway. So when and where were you born?
Rev. Luck:	I was born in White Hall, Virginia, which is Western Albemarle County. Born at home.
Ms. Brand:	Really! Ok --
Rev. Luck:	January 13th, 1932. At about 5 in the afternoon.
Ms. Brand:	Huh! How do you know all that?
Rev. Luck:	It's recorded.
Ms. Brand:	Where?
Rev. Luck:	On my birth certificate.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. Who birthed you?
Rev. Luck:	A midwife, and I think her name was Harriet Rogers.
Ms. Brand:	And she was a midwife in White Hall?
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Did she birth other people you know?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. Many of them!
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. Did you have any brothers and sisters?
Rev. Luck:	Yes, originally it was eight of us -- 4 boys, 4 girls. One of each has died.
Ms. Brand:	Hm. What number were you along the line?
Rev. Luck:	I am number 3.
Ms. Brand:	From the top?
Rev. Luck:	From the top, and the firstborn son.
Ms. Brand:	Did Harriett Rogers birth the rest of the kids as well?
Rev. Luck:	She birthed the first five. And then the others were born at University Hospital.
Ms. Brand:	So why did that happen?
Rev. Luck:	Well, they came along some 20-something years older. In fact, I had left home -- I never stayed in the house with them, so -- they were born in the hospital. Of course the midwife was dead by then anyway...
Ms. Brand:	At the hospital??
Rev. Luck:	She had died.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, she was dead, sorry.
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	So is that the reason that your mother started going to the hospital to birth?
Rev. Luck:	I would think so... well, there was no midwife so she had to go. You know, it was cheaper to have them at home.
Ms. Brand:	Is that why she had midwives at first?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know. I guess so.
Ms. Brand:	Mm-hm.
Rev. Luck:	And that was a common thing.
Mrs. Luck:	It was also because back in the old days black people didn't go to the hospitals.
Ms. Brand:	Weren't allowed, right?
Mrs. Luck:	Yes.
Rev. Luck:	You see, I wasn't even aware of that... (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Maybe she should sit here... (laughs)
Rev. Luck:	She could tell you a lot!
Ms. Brand:	Yeah. We'll actually have to do one of you (Nancy Luck) specifically because you only interject.
Mrs. Luck:	I'm one of these strange people -- I could not sit still long enough.
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) Oh, ok.
Mrs. Luck:	But I did...
Ms. Brand:	Let me see. (checking if microphone is picking her up)
Mrs. Luck:	Oh, I'm sorry!
Ms. Brand:	No no no!
Mrs. Luck:	Erase that.
Ms. Brand:	Ok...
Mrs. Luck:	Erase that. Um. I started filling out those questions.
	[in subsequent discussions, and after hearing the recording and reading the transcript, Mrs. Luck said it was OK to leave this part in]
Ms. Brand:	Oh, the questionnaires!
Mrs. Luck:	On myself.
Ms. Brand:	You did!
Mrs. Luck:	That's right.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, well. We'll definitely have to do one for you then. A recording.
Mrs. Luck:	(Inaudible)
Ms. Brand:	Well, the best recording that I have of you so far is 'B-3, O-74'... when you were playing Bingo.
Mrs. Luck:	Really?
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, because that way you were sitting down for a while! I just recorded a little bit.
Mrs. Luck:	Oh did you?
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, I just thought it was kinda neat.
Mrs. Luck:	Erase this.
Ms. Brand:	Ok, ok. I will.
Ms. Brand:	Alright, so -- what are your parents' names?
Rev. Luck:	My dad's name is James Ralph Luck. He's still alive. He's 97 years old.
Ms. Brand:	Wow!
Mrs. Luck:	Sweetheart, he's 96. He'll be 97 in (Inaudible).
Rev. Luck:	I'm sorry, 96 (smiles).
Ms. Brand:	Wow. Is he still living in White Hall?
Rev. Luck:	No, he lives in Palmyra.
Ms. Brand:	Has he been living there for a long time?
Rev. Luck:	Oh, a couple of years, I guess. He lives with my sister.
Ms. Brand:	Um...
Rev. Luck:	My mother, her name was... her maiden name was Ethel Mae Thomas. She died, I think she was 60 years old... I think.
Ms. Brand:	When was that?
Rev. Luck:	1970.
Ms. Brand:	That's a long time ago. You don't happen to know when they were married.
Rev. Luck:	1928, I believe my dad said. I think it was 1928.
Ms. Brand:	And were they from White Hall originally?
Rev. Luck:	Yes, both were from White Hall.
Ms. Brand:	So, you were born in White Hall. What are some early childhood memories from then?
Rev. Luck:	Ok, I went to school the first 7 grades in a little one-room schoolhouse -- that's still standing, by the way --
Ms. Brand:	Really.
Rev. Luck:	It had one classroom, one library, two what they called 'cloak rooms'.
Ms. Brand:	What was that?
Rev. Luck:	We would call them 'coat rooms' or 'closets.' They called them 'cloak rooms' at the time. And one -- I think they called it a kitchen. One kitchen. And that was it. And we had seven grades going on at the same time, and one teacher!
Ms. Brand:	How did that work?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know, but that's the way it was for my whole...
Ms. Brand:	Did you all -- were you all studying the same thing, or was it actually seven different classes?
Rev. Luck:	Seven different classes and one teacher.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	And I did that for seven years.
Ms. Brand:	Was it the same teacher all along -- that you had for all seven years?
Rev. Luck:	Well, no. I had a total of three teachers during my seven years, but only one at a time. I even remember their names --
Ms. Brand:	What are they?
Rev. Luck:	The first teacher I had, her name was -- she was a Ms. -- Flossie Price. Second teacher -- and I don't know how many grades she had me -- her name was Cornelia Jefferson. And the third teacher was Mable Miller.
Ms. Brand:	What was the name of the school?
Rev. Luck:	it was just 'White Hall Colored School...' that was the name of it, I guess.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. And were your teachers black or white?
Rev. Luck:	Oh, black. We didn't have any association with whites at all. Just work for them.
Ms. Brand:	Right, but not while you were in school, did you?
Rev. Luck:	Oh no. Well, I worked in the summer time.
Ms. Brand:	Where did you work?
Rev. Luck:	I worked on farms.
Ms. Brand:	Doing farm labor?
Rev. Luck:	Farm labor. So I was about 10 years old.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. So what did that include?
Rev. Luck:	Well, when I was 10 I started thinning corn in the summertime, 10-hour day for a quarter.
Ms. Brand:	10-hour day for a quarter of a dollar??
Rev. Luck:	Yes. Good money. (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Well, probably not even in 1942.
Rev. Luck:	(laughs) Oh, It was all I needed.
Ms. Brand:	What did you use it on?
Rev. Luck:	I spent it every day. (smiles)
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) Did you?
Rev. Luck:	Believe it or not, I would walk two miles after I'd get paid and buy me a 12-ounce Pepsi, I'd get a Mounds candy bar, and one package of chewing gum.
Carlton A. Luck & Mieka Brand:	All for a quarter!
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. Where would you get that?
Rev. Luck:	The store is about two miles form my home. The name of the store was Albert Moses Service Station!
Ms. Brand:	Very good! Albert Moses... wow.
Rev. Luck:	On White Hall road.
Ms. Brand:	Huh. Is that still there?
Rev. Luck:	No, they demolished that and built a house just behind it.
Ms. Brand:	You said the school is still up -- is it abandoned?
Rev. Luck:	The school is there. No, it's a residence now. People live in it.
Ms. Brand:	Huh. Do they know it was a school?
Rev. Luck:	I imagine they do. I'm not sure they do, but I imagine they do.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah. So what was the farm you were working on?
Rev. Luck:	Well, I worked -- they still have the farms up there, for the Clarkes.
Ms. Brand:	Bentivar farm?
Rev. Luck:	No.
Ms. Brand:	It must have been a different Clarke.
Rev. Luck:	No, I worked on all of the farms that the Clarkes owned.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, they owned a lot of farms.
Rev. Luck:	Well, there were several of them. Several brothers and they all had adjoining farms. One was Hugh Clarke; he had a brother with an adjoining farm, his name was Jack Clarke; and he had a brother also, his name was Harry Clarke.
Ms. Brand:	And these were all separate farms.
Rev. Luck:	Separate farms. And I worked on all of them.
Ms. Brand:	And I'm assuming that these were white people.
Rev. Luck:	Yes, oh yes.
Ms. Brand:	Were there any black people around who had their own farms?
Rev. Luck:	No. They didn't own any farms. In fact, in my immediate area -- and I'm talking about about like 4-5 miles.
Ms. Brand:	Around.
Rev. Luck:	Right. Well, let me say, where I lived there was only one black, that was our family. The next closest black was like a mile and half away.
Ms. Brand:	Oh! So it wasn't a black community!
Rev. Luck:	Oh no, it was no community at all!
Ms. Brand:	So within 4-5 mile radius of your house you were the only blacks?
Rev. Luck:	The only blacks.
Ms. Brand:	So who were the kids who went to school?
Rev. Luck:	Well, let's call it, say about 3 mile radius. About three miles to travel to get from my house to another one. And the pupils were made up from the community, but it was scattered. I mean, we didn't have a next-door neighbor.
Ms. Brand:	I see. So it wasn't like the school was next door to your house or anything.
Rev. Luck:	No, the school was like 2 1/2, 3 miles from there.
Ms. Brand:	And you would walk there.
Rev. Luck:	Five days a week. Rain or shine.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. So you said it was about 2 1/2 miles?
Rev. Luck:	2 1/2 to 3 miles. We walked because we -- we were called Colored People then -- we couldn't have busses. Only the whites had busses.
Ms. Brand:	So did you go to school with any of your brothers and sisters?
Rev. Luck:	Yes, I went to school with -- actually, the whole five of us went to school together. The first five - my two oldest sisters, and at that time my younger sister, and one brother.
Ms. Brand:	Wait, let me just write down the order, the birth order.
Rev. Luck:	Ok.
Ms. Brand:	So we've got a sister...
Rev. Luck:	Ok. You want the name?
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Rev. Luck:	My oldest sister was Elizabeth, and we called her 'Liz'; The next sister is Ruth; Then me, Carlton; my brother, Donald; my sister, Vivien; and then later on -- this was after I had left home -- three more were added to the family.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok -- so there is a gap over there.
Rev. Luck:	Right. There was a gap of probably... well, I don't really know how many years. I won't try to say it. And then, you want the names of those?
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Rev. Luck:	The next one is Roland; and a sister Angeline; and the last Eric.
Ms. Brand:	Alright. So you went with these five - Elizabeth, Ruth, Carlton, Donald, Vivien.
Rev. Luck:	That's right.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. You all went to White Hall Colored School?
Rev. Luck:	We all went to the White Hall Colored School. And after we graduated from there -- after I graduated from there, we had to go to high school, it was Albemarle Training School. Do you know where that was? It was located...
Ms. Brand:	On Rio Road.
Rev. Luck:	Yes. Well, we would catch a bus -- a school bus -- it wouldn't come by our house. We had to drive like 5 miles to meet the bus.
Ms. Brand:	How did you make those 5 miles? Did you walk them?
Rev. Luck:	My dad was able to buy a car and we would haul down there. Do you know where Oak Union is?
Ms. Brand:	I don't think so.
Rev. Luck:	It was between -- do you Foxfield?
Ms. Brand:	Mm-hm.
Rev. Luck:	It was about 3 miles west of Foxfield on the same road, that's where we had to catch the bus.
Ms. Brand:	So Foxfield is -- if you take Barracks road, just keep going...
Rev. Luck:	Yeah, West.
Ms. Brand:	A whole bunch of miles, right?
Rev. Luck:	Yes. And just beyond Foxfield, say about 2 miles, that's where I caught the school bus. And that was still like 5-6 miles from my home.
Ms. Brand:	And then the school bus would take you to Albemarle Training School.
Rev. Luck:	Albemarle Training School. And then we'd spend the day there and catch the bus back to go home.
Ms. Brand:	And it would drop you at the same place.
Rev. Luck:	Same place.
Ms. Brand:	And your dad would pick you up.
Rev. Luck:	He would pick us up, but a little later on another neighbor who was in the school -- they bought a car and they used it as our transportation. So, our car, their car -- we would just switch weeks.
Ms. Brand:	And that was another black family?
Rev. Luck:	Yes. And they owned a store.
Ms. Brand:	Oh! A general merchandise store?
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. Who shopped over there?
Rev. Luck:	Everybody shopped there, blacks and whites.
Ms. Brand:	So there were some interactions between blacks and whites?
Rev. Luck:	Well, only in the stores... and working for each other.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Rev. Luck:	Right. But nothing social.
Ms. Brand:	Was there a church in White Hall?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. It's still there!
Ms. Brand:	Is it!
Rev. Luck:	The church I belonged to. I joined -- that's the way we did -- when I was 9 years old. I was baptized in the river and joined the church.
Ms. Brand:	What river was that, Rivanna?
Rev. Luck:	Moorman's.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, Moorman's creek
Rev. Luck:	Moorman's River. At the age of 9.
Ms. Brand:	And the church?
Rev. Luck:	Mount Olivet Baptist... and that's in White Hall on Sugar Hollow Road.
Ms. Brand:	Is that near where the airport is right now?
Rev. Luck:	No no no no -- if you stayed on Garth Road, when you get to White Hall, if you don't bear to the right, if you go straight until you get to the post office? Over about 5 or 6 miles you'll run right straight into the dam. Let's say it's on Garth Road Extended go straight on through White Hall and -- well, you don't know where Brown's Cove is or anything like that, but anyway Garth Road will take you right to the church.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. And it's still there.
Rev. Luck:	It's still there, and they use it.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, really.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes.
Ms. Brand:	A lively congregation.
Rev. Luck:	No. Never was. (laughs) I mean, we had people there, but they weren't too lively.
Ms. Brand:	Right, but it's still active.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. That's about it. I don't think they have over 15-20 people.
Ms. Brand:	Members.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, it's tiny. Ok, wait -- I have some questions written up over here. So you started working when you were 10 during the summer at these farms and you said one of the things you did was thin corn?
Rev. Luck:	Thin corn, pull weeds out of it... and after that I started working in the hay fields.
Ms. Brand:	What does that mean 'after that'?
Rev. Luck:	When I wasn't thinning corn I was getting up hay... Oh, that was work, that was hard work. And I did it until I started high school.
Ms. Brand:	Who else used to work over there?
Rev. Luck:	Only adults, other than me.
Ms. Brand:	You were the only child.
Rev. Luck:	Right. Well, my grandmother used to... In the fall of the year, when they cut the corn -- they had big corn fields -- when they cut the corn and, do you know what a shock is?
Ms. Brand:	A shock of corn? Yeah.
Rev. Luck:	Standing out in the field.
Ms. Brand:	A-ha.
Rev. Luck:	Well, my grandmother used to spend the fall and more or less the winter sitting out there in the corn field shucking the corn. She'd shuck it and then they would pick it up and put it away. And she'd sit out there all winter. I mean, unless it would snow or something and then she couldn't.
Ms. Brand:	So it was on the same farms that you were working on.
Rev. Luck:	Same farms, yeah.
Ms. Brand:	So you used to see her there.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. Well, we stayed at the same home.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, you did?
Rev. Luck:	Right. She used to go there to work. Because -- well, she had to work.
Ms. Brand:	Right. Who else lived in the home? Anyone...
Rev. Luck:	Alright, there was the grandmother, my dad, my mom, and the five kids. And I hate to tell you, but we only had three bedrooms.
Ms. Brand:	I was about to ask...
Rev. Luck:	(laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Three bedrooms.
Rev. Luck:	(laughs)
Ms. Brand:	And let me guess they weren't all in one room and you in the other.
Rev. Luck:	Oh no.
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) How many did you share with?
Rev. Luck:	We had a... let's call it a curtain separating one room to make two.
Ms. Brand:	Is that to separate the boys and the girls?
Rev. Luck:	No, my mom and my dad had one room, of course. And they had a curtain to divide that to make a room for the boys, my brother and me.
Ms. Brand:	So you actually shared a room with your parents -- you and your brother shared a room with your parents, but there was a curtain in between.
Rev. Luck:	Right. And then the next bedroom -- that was my grandmother's room -- and she shared the room with my sisters, three sisters.
Ms. Brand:	Also with a curtain like that?
Rev. Luck:	Yup. And that's the way we made it. We had a wood stove, of course.
Ms. Brand:	Which means that you also had to go and collect wood.
Rev. Luck:	Right. The house was not insulated, I mean -- anywhere you looked you could see out. I mean that.
Ms. Brand:	It was -- you mean, the...
Rev. Luck:	It was lap siding.
Ms. Brand:	It was what?
Rev. Luck:	Well, I call that ship-lap siding, or weatherboarding. No insulation, and the only interior finish we had was newspapers covering (laughs) pasted on the walls to keep us warm.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	And when they would tear, you could see out any direction. And I lived there till I was 18 years old.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	They finally got some cardboard boxes and covered the walls. Oh, we were in heaven then! It was nice. And it kept us warm! Of course we got used to it, it didn't bother us a bit.
Ms. Brand:	You must have had a lot of layers on.
Rev. Luck:	Not necessarily so, I guess. But we had a good wood stove, and we kept it going. We lived right in the woods and it was no real problem. I enjoyed it...
Ms. Brand:	You did?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah!
Ms. Brand:	Gosh. I'm glad it was you and not me! Did you have somewhere where you stored the wood for the winter? To keep it dry?
Rev. Luck:	No, we just -- we didn't store it, we just cut it as we needed it. I mean, at least once a week we had to go out in the woods and get wood. And take my dad's car, or either a mule or horse and drag it to the house and then saw it like this (demonstrates manual saw labor). There was no such thing as a power saw, chain saw, none of that stuff...
Ms. Brand:	What did your dad do?
Rev. Luck:	My dad was a professional carpenter.
Mrs. Luck:	(announces to everyone) Ok, how many of you today are not going to eat?
??:	When?
Mrs. Luck:	Today. She needs to count. How many are not going to eat?
	(Some discussion)
Rev. Luck:	Ok? I'm listening to you.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok.
Rev. Luck:	My dad was actually the best carpenter I ever knew.
Ms. Brand:	Did he build your house?
Rev. Luck:	He built his house. I built my house, but he built his house.
Ms. Brand:	The one that you grew up in.
Rev. Luck:	Oh no -- the one I grew up in -- good grief -- that was built before he was born. What I can think is that it was sort of a log house, but with boards on the side. With a dirt cellar, no concrete basement. We didn't even have concrete -- in fact, the foundation was rock and it was all put together with mud.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. I think I've seen an old one like that, but nobody lives in it now.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
	(Pause)
Rev. Luck:	It also had a fire place that we could use.
Ms. Brand:	In addition to the stove.
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	So who did your dad work for, or where did he...
Rev. Luck:	Ok, my dad worked... well, he worked around for different people, but he worked at last for the Clarke guy, Harry Clarke. He was a building contractor so my dad worked for him for a number of years. That's when I was young.
Ms. Brand:	So what kinds of things did he specialize in?
Rev. Luck:	My dad could build any house, any barn, and he could cut any rafter or anything they needed professionally when nobody else could do it. I mean no one else. So they always got him to do it.
Ms. Brand:	Right. Did he make furniture, or it was mostly big things.
Rev. Luck:	Oh, no -- it was just houses and barns... buildings, you know, not furniture. Although... well, yes. He built cabinets. He even built boats.
Ms. Brand:	Boats!
Rev. Luck:	And I have a picture of one that he built with myself standing in it.
Ms. Brand:	Now what would he need a boat for around here?
Rev. Luck:	We were right on the river.
Ms. Brand:	Moorman's river is big enough for a boat?
Rev. Luck:	It was then. Right at my house, I have a picture of a boat with myself standing in it holding a little duck I had shot -- went duck hunting. The river at that time was probably about 75 feet wide, about 24 feet deep...
Ms. Brand:	You're kidding!
Rev. Luck:	And the length of the area was something like -- I would have to guess just about 400 feet!
Ms. Brand:	Wide.
Rev. Luck:	No, long.
Ms. Brand:	Oh.
Rev. Luck:	And about 75-80 feet wide.
Ms. Brand:	From one shore to the other.
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Is it that big now?
Rev. Luck:	Oh no. It's terrible, it has almost dried up.
Ms. Brand:	Is it because of the reservoir?
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. It's dammed up upriver.
Rev. Luck:	Right, it's been dammed up since back in the '40s. My dad helped build the dam.
Ms. Brand:	Did he.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes.
Ms. Brand:	Is it a wood dam??
Rev. Luck:	No, it's concrete! It's like 75-80 feet tall.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	And my dad was one of the main carpenters, and it was built by Faulconer Construction Company -- the same Faulconer Construction in Charlottesville now.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, I've seen that name.
Rev. Luck:	They built it.
Ms. Brand:	But they couldn't be -- they're not related to the Faulconer that was the principal of Esmont school.
Rev. Luck:	No, he was black.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, and these Faulconers are white.
Rev. Luck:	These Faulconers are white. They own the largest construction company in Charlottesville now.
Ms. Brand:	You're right. I've seen that name around. So he was the main carpenter for them, but the dam itself was concrete.
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	So what sort of carpentry did they need for the dam?
Rev. Luck:	It's all formed -- they had built forms to hold the concrete.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, so like the skeleton.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	He was the only one really that knew how to bend the plywood of the boards to get the shape they wanted. And let me say, it was kind of funny when he applied for the job. The guy who was the foreman -- his name was Red Neil, he was from West Virginia -- and when my dad applied for the job, he told my dad -- after my dad told him what he could do -- he said 'I don't know if I can get you the job cause you're colored, but I'll try.' So he talked to Mr. Faulconer, he told him what my dad said he could do, and he hired him! And my dad worked for him a total of about... I would have to say a total of 25-30 years.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. So he must have been either the only or one of the only black people to be there.
Rev. Luck:	No, well, after that they hired a lot of blacks, after him.
Ms. Brand:	Oh they did? He proved that it was a worthwhile investment.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah -- definitely. So they were glad that they hired him.
Ms. Brand:	So because he was black, do you think that he got paid less?
Rev. Luck:	Oh, of course! I know he did.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, you do.
Rev. Luck:	I know that.
Ms. Brand:	Did he ever talk about it?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah -- we always talked about it. But he didn't complain about it, because he was glad he was making even that much money -- regardless of how small it was, it was better than he could have made anywhere else.
Ms. Brand:	And what was your mom doing during this time?
Rev. Luck:	Well, she kept home for a while, but then during the Second World War also she got a job working in New Jersey, and I know the name of the place where she worked -- two of them, anyway -- Bristol Myers, somewhere in New Jersey, and the other place I remember is Phelps Dodge, and Phelps Dodge was a defense plant, I think. I don't know the nature of... cause I never... other than it was some kind of defense plant, they called it.
Ms. Brand:	And what was she doing?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know. I really don't know.
Ms. Brand:	Did she ever talk about it?
Rev. Luck:	Perhaps, but I was too young to really understand what she was saying, or what it meant. But I know she stayed away so long that it kind of bothers us at home we almost didn't know her.
Ms. Brand:	How long?
Rev. Luck:	She's probably gone at least a year at a time.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	We were glad to see her when she came.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, I bet. Do you remember any of those reunions?
Rev. Luck:	Well, nothing other than we were just -- didn't want to see her go back. She had came, like on vacation, and when she had to go back we cried, that's all I remember.
Ms. Brand:	So who was taking care of you?
Rev. Luck:	My grandmother, my dad's mother.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. So your grandmother that was living with you was your father's mother.
Rev. Luck:	Right. She owned the house.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, she did. Was that the house she grew up in?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know. She bought the place in 1901.
Ms. Brand:	She bought it!
Rev. Luck:	She bought it. In 1901. I don't know who built the house. I think a great grandfather built the house.
Ms. Brand:	So, that must have been pretty unusual for a woman to be buying property -- I would think.
Rev. Luck:	Well, it was. It was unusual, but she just happened to be the first or second kid out of slavery.
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Rev. Luck:	I don't know how she acquired the money, but she did get the money and she bought the place.
Ms. Brand:	She did get money from where?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know! But she bought the property. And I have the original deed to it!
Ms. Brand:	Wow!
Rev. Luck:	That's how I know that particular part.
Ms. Brand:	That's how you know it was 1901.
Rev. Luck:	Yes. I own the property now. Nancy and I.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok.
Rev. Luck:	Yeah, my dad -- he gave it to her and me about three years ago.
Ms. Brand:	So he was living there until three years ago?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah.
Ms. Brand:	In the same house?
Rev. Luck:	No, he built the house that is there now in 1960-61.
Ms. Brand:	You were out of the house by then, right?
Rev. Luck:	He built his house same time I built mine down the road here. And I helped him build his. He helped me build mine, I helped him build his.
Ms. Brand:	So then you were 18 years old, and you graduated from...
Rev. Luck:	Graduated from Albemarle Training School... and my first job after I got out of high school was drilling water wells.
Ms. Brand:	Water wells. With what?
Rev. Luck:	The man I worked for was a well driller -- a big old cable tool.
Ms. Brand:	Was it electric, or a motor --
Rev. Luck:	No, no -- gasoline.
Ms. Brand:	Oh it was, ok. It wasn't manual.
Rev. Luck:	No -- just getting the bits ready and putting them on, and then you get an engine to run the thing with a cable on it, and that was my first job with Hubert Hutchins, that was the man's name. He was from Texas -- Texas oil-well man. As rough as they come.
Ms. Brand:	Oh yeah? What does that mean?
Rev. Luck:	I mean, cussed and... he was just rough and hard to get along with, but I loved drilling wells, so I stayed with him.
Ms. Brand:	Why did you love it?
Rev. Luck:	I don't know -- it was something I saw before I got out of school. I used to go to the movies and watch them drill oil wells, and it was just something that I fell in love with. And today I love it.
Ms. Brand:	Really. You still do it?
Rev. Luck:	Well, I bought a well drill and Nancy and I ran it for 4-5 years.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. Wow.
Rev. Luck:	After I got -- well, that was back in the '80s.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Rev. Luck:	But anyway, that was my first job after I got out of the high school, and I went in the army and came back and went back to work for him!
Ms. Brand:	Huh. Ok, we're going to have to do more about 'went to the army and came back,' but we can focus on water drills for now, if you want.
Rev. Luck:	Alright. Well, I worked for this man, I guess for a total for a total of probably about three years. (Pause) And the reason I quit it -- he used to cuss all the time. I grew up in a home where there was no cussing, and I never could get used to it. And I quit him once because he was cussing at me, and I told him why I quit. So he wanted me to come back because he said I was the best worker he had ever had, so I said 'the only reason I'll come back is you don't cuss at me anymore, cause I just can't take it.' He wasn't cussing me out or anything, he just -- just his language, whatever. So he said 'Ok. I want you back.' He did fine for the first week -- as nice as he could be.
Mrs. Luck:	(something about why he's telling me the story)
Rev. Luck:	She's asking.
Mrs. Luck:	He will talk you to death!
Ms. Brand:	I'm loving it, it's great!
Rev. Luck:	So the first week he was just as nice as he could be, second week he let a cuss word slip out, the third week I went to work, he decided he was going to stand up and have a nice little chewing out and he was cussing all the time. And I told him, 'well, you can take your job and do what you want with it.' I walked off. That was it, I wasn't gonna work for him anymore, so I went to Charlottesville and got a job working in a used-car dealer that I already knew. But he came back after me and I said to him 'no.' He said 'well, you quit me and you didn't even let me know you weren't coming back.' I said 'I told you if you cuss me I wasn't coming back.' So he begged me to come back, but I wouldn't go, and that ended that. So that was back in the '50s. And then in '87, I believe it was, I bought my own well drill and Nancy and I, we operated that and we just had fun.
Ms. Brand:	Did you drill wells for private people -- for private houses?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes -- I built a bunch of them in Albemarle County, one right down the road here, just two doors down. I drilled that one, I drilled a bunch of them in Nelson County, Fluvanna, Greene... I was fairly busy, but then I had a good thing going on in Nelson County and -- you may not want all of this, but I'll just tell you anyway...
Ms. Brand:	Sure -- go ahead.
Rev. Luck:	I had something like fourteen-hundred wells to drill up in Nelson County.
Ms. Brand:	Fourteen hundred??
Rev. Luck:	Fourteen hundred. And what happened, the guy who was running the Nelson County Foundation, they replaced him with another man and for some reason he didn't care for me and he just cut all of it off.
Ms. Brand:	Even though you had a contract.
Rev. Luck:	Well, a contract was a verbal contract.
Ms. Brand:	Oh.
	(Nurse makes announcement about updating JABA records.)
Ms. Brand:	So how much would the price of a well run?
Rev. Luck:	Local well drillers were getting, like thirty five hundred dollars per well.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. Regardless of how deep it is?
Rev. Luck:	Right. And I had a contract where I would do them for twenty-five to twenty-seven hundred.
Ms. Brand:	Oh -- so they were getting a great deal.
Rev. Luck:	I wasn't trying to cut down -- right. And they just gave them to me. But this other guy didn't want me to have that kind of business, so he took it from me. So I ended up selling my rig, giving it away, really.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, really. To somebody you knew?
Rev. Luck:	No. Somebody found out I had it and they came to see me, and I was desperate at this point, so I said 'let it go,' so I let it go at a give-away price. But, you know, I couldn't do anything about it. The County wouldn't let me run it now. By this time they had put codes up that I couldn't do anything with.
Ms. Brand:	What kind of codes?
Rev. Luck:	You had to have a hole a certain size, and get so much concrete around the well casing, and I couldn't do that because my rig wasn't big enough to do that. So I had to let it go. When I started drilling, there were no codes of any kind, so then they put all this on and I just lost out completely. So that ended that.
Ms. Brand:	Alright, so let's rewind a bit.
Rev. Luck:	Ok.
Ms. Brand:	To the army. (laughs) How did that happen, or...
Rev. Luck:	Ok, in 1952 I was drafted into the army...
Ms. Brand:	Oh, so you were actually drafted.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes.
Ms. Brand:	Let's see, but then you were -- you were 20 years old.
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	So you were already out of school for two years or so.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Rev. Luck:	I was drafted and they sent me to Georgia to take my basic training, and to Camp Gordon. And while I was there I went to telephone school for building and maintaining long-distance telephone services. I got a diploma for that... and after that they sent me to Germany. To Stuttgart, Germany. And I went to school there, also, and took a course in field-radio repair.
Ms. Brand:	So you were a communications man.
Rev. Luck:	Right. I was in the signal core. So after that they gave me a job operating a triple-radio relay station.
Ms. Brand:	And what's that?
Rev. Luck:	All of our communications were done by radio -- we didn't use telephones. Well, we had radio telephones, but we did all our communications really by radio. And we'd go up on a mountain and set up a radio and we would talk from this hill to that hill, from that hill to the next. And my job was to set up the station and operate it, and that was in Germany.
Ms. Brand:	So how long were you in Germany for?
Rev. Luck:	I was in Germany 13 months and 13 days.
Ms. Brand:	Wow... any significance to that?
Rev. Luck:	The 13-13?
Ms. Brand:	Yeah. (laughs)
Rev. Luck:	I don't suppose so. (Laughs) I'm not superstitious, so I don't get serious -- but then, they gave me a discharge and sent me back home. My time was up.
Ms. Brand:	So you were just...
Rev. Luck:	Two years.
Ms. Brand:	That's what you were obligated to do. Two years.
Rev. Luck:	Right. Two years active and six years inactive reserve.
	(end of first interview, first part)
Ms. Brand:	Did you ever get called up while you were on reserve?
Rev. Luck:	No, we didn't have anything going on. I don't know when the Vietnam war broke out, but by that time I was either out, or they didn't have any need for me. So I never got called for anything.
Ms. Brand:	But it was the Korean war when you first started.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	So is that why they were having the draft?
Rev. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. So everyone your age was getting drafted?
Rev. Luck:	Everyone my age, if they could qualify, got drafted. I mean, we had to take physical and -- what do they call a mental test -- see if you have good sense or something. (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, I know what you mean -- they call it psychotechnic sometimes or...
Rev. Luck:	I don't know what they called it, but this is what we had to go through. We'd go to Richmond, Virginia, and have an examination. And then, if we passed, qualified, they drafted us. Most of the guys drafted when I was drafted, they went to Korea, and I went to Germany.
Ms. Brand:	So why do you think that was?
Rev. Luck:	I don't really know -- I have no idea, but it's just the way it worked out. I'm glad it did go that way now.
Ms. Brand:	But then? At the time?
Rev. Luck:	At the time I wanted to go to Korea.
Ms. Brand:	You did.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. I really wanted to go and fight. I wanted to be a tank driver, but that didn't work. I would have gotten blown away first thing. Yes, they say tanks were the first thing they would pick on, so I didn't go there and I'm still here. One of my best friends, he went over and he got killed. I guess he was over there a month before he got killed. So I went to Germany and I made it back home!
Ms. Brand:	Were the units segregated at the time?
Rev. Luck:	Believe it or not, when I got overseas... well, actually in Georgia and overseas I was the first black in all the units I went in.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. So that means that you were the only one.
Rev. Luck:	I was first, but then others were added. Just one or two.
Ms. Brand:	So your family just had a tradition of exploring...
Rev. Luck:	Seems like it!
Ms. Brand:	Yeah.
Rev. Luck:	But, I was sort of surprised. But, you know, it didn't bother me being black -- we were colored, we weren't black then -- being colored with a bunch of whites, it didn't bother me. If they didn't call me 'nigger' it didn't bother me. And that's the only...
Ms. Brand:	And did they?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah. I had a lot of them do that. I almost had one fight. Well, he didn't call me that. He was gonna call me something by my mother, you can understand... and he and I were going to war, and it just happened the sergeant heard it and he jumped out there and asked what's going on. I said -- I don't know if you want all this on tape.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Rev. Luck:	But I was about to...
Ms. Brand:	Do you want me to pause?
Rev. Luck:	You might.
Ms. Brand:	(after convincing him that this is important material to record)... Just because this is the kind of stuff that young people don't know about.
Rev. Luck:	Ok. So they made me a squad leader and they told us that day after our schooling that we had to change all of our wall lockers. Wall lockers looked like those cabinets over there (big aluminum supplies cabinets). But we had to change and get new ones and they put me in charge of a particular floor in the barracks. And everybody didn't have to change lockers, because some of them were new. But the lieutenant told me and the other squad leaders that nobody could leave the company area until all the lockers were changed. When we got all of ours changed on my floor, one guy, his name was (grinning) Robert E. Lee...
Ms. Brand:	Oh!
Rev. Luck:	(laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Ironically...
Rev. Luck:	Yep. He came back up to where I was and said -- they called me 'Luck' by my last name -- he said 'Luck, I'm going downtown now.' So I said, 'well, you know you can't leave the company area until all the lockers have been changed' and this is when he called me a... mother...
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok.
Rev. Luck:	And at that point I was just at the point of trying to do him in... there were 13 steps, and they were marble, in the barracks. I was going to knock him down all the way down there. We got into it verbally, and the sergeant just happened to be in his room and he came rushing out 'what's going on out here?' I said, 'Sergeant, Lee here called me a name, and I don't play that. I don't take it from anybody. And I was going to knock him down these steps. He said 'well, you know, you should have done it.' (Laughs) But I didn't. So he restricted him to the area -- he couldn't leave for a week, and all the other guys could leave after they had changed the lockers. He had it in for me, but I let him know 'you don't want to mess with me.' So I didn't have any more problems with him. But that was the first encounter I had with anybody about a racial thing. And he -- the name wasn't racial, but the way he did it, it sort of seemed that way. I didn't have too much problems after that. But, again, I was the first col -- the first black in all of the companies I went in. They had to get used to me more than I did them. See, I had never been a person who's been in trouble. Until today I had never had a fight in my life -- other than with my brother, one time.
Ms. Brand:	When was that?
Rev. Luck:	When my dad built the boat for me, and when we were working on it my brother said something that made me mad and I told him 'don't you work on my boat.' I said 'if you do, I'll get the gun and kill you'. (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Oh, Lord. (laughs)
Rev. Luck:	And he had a few words -- he was bigger than me, but he was two years younger. So I ran in the house to get the shotgun...
Ms. Brand:	Oh my goodness...
Rev. Luck:	And he ran in there right behind me, and he got all the shells. (Laughs) So that ended that. So that's the last fight we had.
Ms. Brand:	So that's the biggest fight you ever had.
Rev. Luck:	The biggest fight I ever had. So that ended that. I'm not a trouble-maker, I don't tolerate trouble... people who want trouble, I just leave them alone.
Ms. Brand:	Right. So they had to get used to you.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	And did they have a hard time?
Rev. Luck:	Well, I don't know -- I had a few little racial things said when I was in Germany -- I'll just tell you one, I won't tell you the second one. We went out to a 'gasthaus,' that's a beer hall, they called it a 'gasthaus' -- just where you go to get your booze. I hadn't been to this particular one, but one time, and got back to my company about a day or so later -- now, I was the only black in there -- a day or so later the sergeant -- white sergeant -- came up and reported that I had beat him! He went to the company headquarters and called me out. You know, after he reported they called me out, had a fall-out, and they checked us over and he said the time it had happened, he said I was the one that did it. Well, the only defense I had was that my buddies around there, they said I wasn't even off of the polls stick because were together in the barracks in that same evening. Otherwise I would have been convicted of beating the guy. And I guess, what made me think it was a racial thing -- what happened, I didn't see it, there was a 13-14 year-old black kid from somewhere and said he did beat the sergeant -- the sergeant was drunk. He did it, but he just thought I did it just because I was black.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, right. So what was a 13-14 year old kid doing there?
Rev. Luck:	See, I don't really know. I was told about it...
Ms. Brand:	Was it an American kid?
Rev. Luck:	See, I don't know if he's American, or half American half German or what. See, they had half-blacks half-whites in Germany by the time I got over there from the Second World War. And I think this was one of those, but for some reason the sergeant got drunk and started after the kid, and he beat him up and they put it on me. But I got cleared of that.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, that was lucky.
Rev. Luck:	And that was the end of that.
Ms. Brand:	So that was two years in the army.
Rev. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	And then when you got done with that?
Rev. Luck:	Well, I was still in the army... I don't know just how much longer, but I was one person -- I don't know how this ever happened -- after I did my schooling I never had to work one day in the army.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Rev. Luck:	All soldiers have to do work five days a week, but I was exempt from that, and I don't know why other than my officer in charge didn't make me do any work. Every Saturday they would have inspection of the barracks and the soldiers, and a parade. The officer in charge, he was represented as a master-sergeant, but he was really a full colonel, one step from being a general. He got to call me 'Luck.' He told me, 'Luck, now you don't have to be inspected, and you don't have to go in parades.' He said 'what I want you to do, every Saturday, is go out to the snack-bar' there was a snack bar about a quarter of a mile away, 'you just go over there and eat something or just fool around.' He said 'just don't let the officers catch you. I can see.' He said 'and if you see them coming just hide somewhere. And I did it the whole time I was there. (laughs) And nothing was ever done -- I was never caught, I never got in any trouble. He had more rank than anybody else anyway, he said 'what I tell you, you can do it. Just stay out of sight.' And I did that.
Ms. Brand:	And he never gave any explanation of why.
Rev. Luck:	He said -- (smiles) Let me tell you what he really said -- he said 'a man of your caliber ought to get what he wants.' This is the very words he gave me! And listen to this he was a white guy from South Carolina, and I was the first the first black in his company then.
Mrs. Luck:	He's just a humble... loving person!
	(Nancy Luck and Mieka Brand laugh)
Rev. Luck:	But that's the way it went. And I really had it made when I was over there. No inspections, no parades, no work -- other than when I went out on maneuvers and had set up my radio relay. Other than that I didn't do a thing!
Ms. Brand:	So it was a big old two-year summer camp.
Rev. Luck:	(laughs) Right. Exactly.
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) Abroad!
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. And that was the best thing. I had two-three other small encounters that didn't really -- none of them ever amounted to anything, but I had a few little things, racial things -- I'll just tell you one more then I'll get off of that.
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Rev. Luck:	At this time it was only two blacks in the company. A guy from Michigan, and myself. We were down sitting in the mess hall -- mess hall is where we would eat -- we were sitting in there eating one day... now, you want me to tell all of it, just like it happened?
Ms. Brand:	Sure!
Rev. Luck:	Ok. We were sitting at the table, eating, and a guy just started a conversation and he said... talking about how people were getting beat up when they go downtown and get drunk? This one guy from Indiana, when you come to think about it -- he said something about killing folk. And this guy sitting right across the table from me and my buddy -- my black buddy was sitting here (laughs), all the rest 4-5 white guys sitting around -- and he said something about 'killing.' And he said 'well, you know, if I wanted to kill somebody, I'd go downtown and kill one of those niggers. (Laughs) He said it just like that, you know? Oh, when he said that I turned purple and was ready to fight (laughs), but my buddy said 'wait a minute, just be calm.' He said 'you know you're not a nigger so you don't have to worry about it!' (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Oh... (laughs)
Rev. Luck:	And that settled that, you know? But honey -- I had smoke coming out of my ears. Cause, you see, I had only heard that toward blacks. And he meant it that way, but that wasn't what a nigger really is, you know. So that took care of that and I didn't have any more problems with him. The guy apologized. He said 'well, I wasn't talking to you or about you'.
Ms. Brand:	So what was he talking about?
Rev. Luck:	Well, he was talking about blacks.
Ms. Brand:	But German blacks? The kids from World War Two?
Rev. Luck:	Yeah. It's just something -- you know, I just wasn't quite able to handle that. But we got it over and that was the end of it, and that was really just the only thing that I really remember in detail.
Ms. Brand:	Were there any relationships between those kids, you know the second-generation kids in Germany, and the black soldiers who came? Or any of the soldiers.
Rev. Luck:	Not that I know of.
Ms. Brand:	Huh. Did they speak English?
Rev. Luck:	Well, yes. Well, just about all of the Germans could speak... in fact, better than I did! (Laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Really.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. Cause see, they were taught that after the Second World War -- when we occupied Germany then everybody learned to speak English. I mean, not everybody, the old folk didn't, but the young folk -- yeah, they all learned English.
Ms. Brand:	So the kids, well, they spoke English because they learned it in school, not from hanging out at the...
Rev. Luck:	I imagined they learned it in school, yeah.
Ms. Brand:	So you didn't come into contact with them.
Rev. Luck:	No. Tell you the truth, the blacks over in Germany wouldn't even have anything to do with me. Even we had black WAC women in the army -- they wouldn't even have anything to do with black guys. They didn't even associate with us. Which didn't matter to me at all, you know, it's just the way they were.
Ms. Brand:	What's that term you just used -- WAGs?
Rev. Luck:	WAC -- it's Women Army Corps.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. So they had their own separate corps.
Rev. Luck:	Mm-hm.
Ms. Brand:	So when was it that you got back to the States?
Rev. Luck:	I came back to the States in June -- it was June the 24th, I believe, 1954. That's when I got my discharge.
Ms. Brand:	Honorable.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yes. Definitely. In my two years in the army I never got a -- what would you call a demerit, or a mark against me? -- I have a clean record. Spotless.
Ms. Brand:	Amazing.
Rev. Luck:	It don't mean I didn't do anything wrong (smiles), I just didn't get caught! (Laughs)
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) Of course! Isn't that what it always means?
Rev. Luck:	(laughs) I guess so. But I never did anything really bad. I went AWOL one time...
Ms. Brand:	Did you?
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah, they could have locked me up, but I...
Ms. Brand:	What did you do? Where did you go?
Rev. Luck:	I was stationed, getting ready to go overseas, and I was stationed up in New Jersey at Camp Kilmer, and I decided I was gonna -- I knew when my boat was going to ship out -- I just went AWOL, well, I was going for a weekend and after I went AWOL things didn't work out so I went on back to the camp. When I got back they had ripped my locker open, my duffle bag, and -- oh, I pitched a fit -- and they told me 'you aughtn't say a word. If you don't get court-marshaled, you aught to keep your mouth shut.' And you know what saved me? We had a black general in charge of the whole camp post area? He told me 'don't you say a word. I'm gonna leave your record clean.' Didn't put anything, didn't even report that I had been AWOL, and it's not on the record yet. So I kept my mouth shut.
Ms. Brand:	Why were you going to do it? You just didn't want to go overseas?
Rev. Luck:	I just wanted to have a little fun before I left the States. I knew I was going to be gone for at least a year...
Ms. Brand:	So you were planning to come back.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah! I was just going to be gone for 2-3 days.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Rev. Luck:	I wouldn't desert! Oh no!! I wouldn't do that. When I went, there was a friend of mine that I had met -- he was a white guy -- we both went AWOL. They got him.
Ms. Brand:	Ohhhh, they did.
Rev. Luck:	They got him. Of course, he stayed three days. And I only stayed one day and one night. But things didn't work out right for me, so I went on back. Oh, they hit him hard. I don't know how I escaped all the punishment...
Ms. Brand:	Do you ever stay in touch with him?
Rev. Luck:	I don't think I ever saw him again. When I got to Germany I never saw him again.
Ms. Brand:	Did you hever stay in touch with anyone you were in the army with?
Rev. Luck:	No.
Ms. Brand:	Were there a lot of people from Virginia?
Rev. Luck:	No, not that I know of. When we went to Richmond, it was 89 -- I believe -- of us, went down to be examined? And out of 89, I think seven passed. Qualified.
Ms. Brand:	Wow! You're kidding!
Rev. Luck:	And I was one of them. And I just thought sure I wouldn't make it. But I was one of the 7 out of the 89 and I never kept up with any of them. After I got married. Well, one guy I went to high school with, graduated with, best man in my wedding -- he and I were the best of friends, but after I got married he sort of drifted a way. He lived down in Keswick, and we just never kept close touch.
Ms. Brand:	So when you got back you started working for the well-driller again?
Rev. Luck:	Right. After I got after the service. I guess I worked for him probably -- I'm just going to have to say, it was a couple of different times -- probably a total of about a year until I found I just couldn't work for him because he was just too rough for me.
Ms. Brand:	Right. Did you go back to your parents' house when you got back?
Rev. Luck:	Uh... no. I stayed in Charlottesville with an uncle of mine for a little while... I went back home just a couple of times, but not to stay. Then I met Nancy and we got married.
Ms. Brand:	How did you meet Nancy?
Rev. Luck:	Through my sister Vivien. They went to high school together. And that's just an interesting thing -- my sister would write me, we would write each other... and she was writing letters from Nancy to me. I thought it was her -- I had never seen her!
Ms. Brand:	You thought it was who?
Rev. Luck:	I thought it was Nancy -- and it was my sister writing, signing Nancy's name to them. We hadn't even met! And she told Nancy, 'well, when my brother gets out of service you're going to marry him.'
Ms. Brand:	(laughs)
Rev. Luck:	She laughed and said 'you gotta be crazy!' but after I got out of service, one day I met her... and, hey, I did like what I saw, you know? So I met her another time... and we talked a little. Very little, cause she was so bashful.
Ms. Brand:	Was she!
Rev. Luck:	Oh, she was the shyest person you ever saw! And I wanted to bring her home, to Esmont, and her mother told her 'you will here do no such thing -- you don't know anything about him!'
Ms. Brand:	Was she still in high school?
Rev. Luck:	No -- it was the same year she graduated from high school, '54. And her mother knew my sister, Vivien, and she told us 'that young man -- he can take you home, but his sister Vivien will have to go with you.' Well, we didn't mind that, so I brought her home one day, met her mother. We talked a little bit. Then I brought her home again -- but each time my sister had to ride in the car, which that was no problem.
Ms. Brand:	Company for the way back.
Rev. Luck:	Right. So after 3-4 times I said, 'hey, I think I like this gal'. (laughs) So then, having talked to her mother several times, she gave her permission to ride in the car without my sister. (To women who approached us:) You need some money?
??:	Yes. Excuse me...
	(discussion about lunch -- Rev. Luck offers to pay for Mieka's lunch)
??:	... so I guess we can say grace, y'all, so ...
Rev. Luck:	(whispers) Do you want to stop that a minute?
	(pause)
Rev. Luck:	So after her mother gave her permission to ride alone with me, we talked. I used to pick her up and bring her home almost -- about three times a week, I guess. I treated her to some ice cream or something, and after a few weeks I asked her if she would marry me.
Ms. Brand:	Really! A few weeks?
Rev. Luck:	A few weeks. I met her in August, and by December I had asked her to marry me. And she almost had a heart-attack, cause she hadn't even thought about getting married. So anyway, after I convinced her to say 'yes' -- this is in December -- and in the following June '55 we got married. And 11 months later we had our first child. And we've been happy ever since. Oh, we've had our disagreements -- 10 million of them -- (laughs) but we've had a good 46 years.
Ms. Brand:	46 years. That is such a blessing. Where did you get married?
Rev. Luck:	We got married in Esmont, at her home. About 300 people attended.
Ms. Brand:	Three hundred!!
Rev. Luck:	Three hundred. She's got pictures.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Rev. Luck:	See, she was famous. I wasn't.
Ms. Brand:	I guess so. A lot of young men must have been upset.
Rev. Luck:	Oh yeah. You got one here -- Jordan? You know what he told me one day after we got married? He said 'you didn't have to come to our community and pick the prettiest woman we have!' (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	(laughs)
Rev. Luck:	But, you know, I was -- I just thought she was the one to marry. And I'm glad I married her, and I think she's satisfied.
Ms. Brand:	I think she is, too. How about, since you're getting ready to eat, we'll save the Esmont part of the story, since we're up to Esmont now, for next time?
Rev. Luck:	Ok.
Ms. Brand:	Does that sound alright?
Rev. Luck:	Yeah.
Ms. Brand:	Well, thank you so much!
Rev. Luck:	You're welcome, thank you.
Ms. Brand:	This was...
	(end of first interview)
	(beginning of second interview)
Mr. Luck:	Maybe I should just come around there.
Ms. Brand:	Let me just say, it's November 1st, 2001, and I'm doing my second interview with Reverend Luck and this is Mieka Brand and we're in Esmont, Virginia.
Mr. Luck:	Good morning. Uh... I have just moved to Esmont - have I?
Ms. Brand:	You were just getting married last time.
Mr. Luck:	Just getting married. Ok.
Ms. Brand:	Mm-hm. You were telling me there were 300 people at the wedding.
Mr. Luck:	Right. 300 people at the wedding, and we got married on the 25th of June, 1955, at the home of Nancy. And...
Ms. Brand:	Which is in Esmont, right?
Mr. Luck:	Well, yes. That's in Esmont. One mile over from this church.
Ms. Brand:	From this church.
Mr. Luck:	Right. And we got married, we lived with her parents for just 2-3 months, I believe, and then we rented a place about half a mile from there. We stayed there for probably a year, and the people we were renting from became so rude that they would come into the house when we weren't there and go through things...
Ms. Brand:	Oh, goodness.
Mr. Luck:	And they accused us of destroying the cooking stove, which we didn't. Walking across the floor and the door just fell off of the stove. Gave us a hard time about it, but anyway...
Ms. Brand:	Was it people that you knew?
Mr. Luck:	Yes, we were renting from them next door. They were next door.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, so it was people that...
Mr. Luck:	Neighbors.
Ms. Brand:	That you had already known.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. At least Nancy knew them. I didn't know them too well.
Ms. Brand:	That's right because you didn't live here.
Mr. Luck:	Right. And we stayed there a little while and they were so obnoxious that we had to leave, so we left there and we managed to rent a house almost immediately across the road in front of that one. Well, we stayed there about a year, I guess, and to our surprise the owner of the house, late one afternoon, he brought all of his stuff in his vehicle and said 'I'm moving in, you're moving out.'
Ms. Brand:	The owner.
Mr. Luck:	The owner.
Ms. Brand:	Oh gosh (laughs).
Mr. Luck:	So we had to move out there. So we went back to my in-laws and they accepted us, of course, and we stayed there a while. And then I was able to rent another house, which was about a quarter-mile from there. So we stayed there for three years and the rent was so cheap that I couldn't afford to pay it!
Ms. Brand:	So cheap?
Mr. Luck:	Right
Ms. Brand:	That you couldn't afford to pay it.
Mr. Luck:	I couldn't. It was 20 dollars a month, and I couldn't afford to pay it.
Ms. Brand:	wow.
Mr. Luck:	Because - my job. Back then I was making, like - I don't remember exactly how much, but something like 30-35 dollars a week. Working six days. That's what paid my pay, and I couldn't afford to pay 20 dollars a month.
Ms. Brand:	Right. Your job at the time, was that with the drilling wells?
Mr. Luck:	No no. I was working at a service station then. Or at least a used-car dealer and I didn't make but the $35 for the whole week and we had a few bills, but I couldn't afford the 20 dollars. So the owner of the property lived in Connecticut and I told him that, you know, I just couldn't afford to pay 20 dollars a month. So he said 'well, I'll tell you what we can do.' He said 'when you have it and can afford it you could pay it, and when you don't have it, don't even think about it.'
Ms. Brand:	Really!
Mr. Luck:	Really. So I went for months and couldn't afford to pay 20 dollars, which seems awful. But - I don't remember exactly how many months I didn't pay, but during that time I tried to build a house so I couldn't buy any property because nobody would let me have it. I had a neighbor that every time I tried to get a piece of land he would do something to keep you from getting it. He would go to the owner and block it so I couldn't get it. So that made me so frustrated that I didn't know what to do. So my father-in-law, he said 'Well, Carlton, I have some land joining where my house is.' He said, 'I'll let you have enough to build a house on.' And he said, 'nobody can block this.' So he drew up a deed and let me have enough land to build a house on.
Ms. Brand:	He sold it to you or he gave it to you?
Mr. Luck:	Well, that was kind of funny that you would ask - he sold me the land for $100 and that was, well, enough to build a house on and I don't know whether it was one acre or what. But anyway - so I couldn't pay him 100 dollars so I paid a little bit at a time. I think I paid him - I think it was like 37 dollars total. He saw I was struggling, so he said, 'I'll tell you what. You can have the balance of that for a wedding present.' So we received the property for - mostly for a wedding present. That was like '56-'57.
Ms. Brand:	Who - this person in Connecticut, did you know him?
Mr. Luck:	Well, my father-in-law had worked for his cousin who owned the property where I was renting. Owned the big house on the property.
Ms. Brand:	I see.
Mr. Luck:	But I didn't - I had met him, but I didn't know him. But Nancy's cousin was working there so he was the one that talked me into trying to get the cottage to stay in. But I didn't really know him, so I met him during that time. His name is Lorraine Pittman. But anyway, while I was there I stayed, like, three years I think and in the meantime I was wanting to build a house. After my father-in-law had let me have the property I went ahead and purchase cinder block to build the basement. I did that and then the basement just sat there 'cause I couldn't build the house on it... so at the time it was impossible to get a loan. Having been a U.S. veteran, honored veteran, I thought maybe that they would help me, so I tried to get a VA loan and that was almost impossible. They said I qualified for seventy-five hundred dollars to build a house and the thing about it, I had to find somebody to lend me the money. Well, because I didn't have any credit the banks wouldn't help me. So I said, 'How about getting a direct VA loan?' they said, 'Well, that's fine, but there are ten thousand people in line ahead of you.
Ms. Brand:	Ten thousand.
Mr. Luck:	Ten thousand.
Ms. Brand:	Oh my goodness.
Mr. Luck:	So that was discouraging
Ms. Brand:	This is at the end - well, this is a long time after the end of World War Two. It's after...
Mr. Luck:	This is Korean War
Ms. Brand:	It's even after that - after the end of the Korean War.
Mr. Luck:	Right. Yes. So I decided, well, I don't know what to do. So I kept praying and kept trying to find something. So I went to a lumber company - first place before that, Nancy and I went around to try to buy a mobile home. And we looked at them over and over and over and over.. and we liked them, but we just couldn't afford it. Because we didn't have credit they wouldn't let us have one. So -
Ms. Brand:	Catch 22
Mr. Luck:	How's that?
Ms. Brand:	Catch 22.
Mr. Luck:	Right. We drove all over the state of Virginia looking at mobile homes and nothing could we buy. Although we liked them, they showed them to us, but we went home almost in tears every time. I was determined. So I went to several lumber companies - lumber dealers and asked them if they would help, and they weren't interested. So I went to one last lumber company and it was Barnes Lumber in Charlottesville. They said, 'Well, we don't see why we can't help you.' They sold everything I needed to build the house and completing it.
Ms. Brand:	Wait, let me understand - other companies weren't interested in selling to you?
Mr. Luck:	Because I didn't have any money. And they weren't going to let me have credit.
Ms. Brand:	On credit. I see.
Mr. Luck:	Then I tried the banks and they couldn't help me. So I went to one bank - the last bank I went to was in Scottsville - and talked to the manager there, so he told me: 'If you could get a house under-the-roof I will let you have money to - after you get it under-the-roof I'll let you have a loan to pay for it.
Ms. Brand:	What does that mean 'under the roof'?
Mr. Luck:	Get it - build the walls up, put the roof on it, and once you get the top on the house - you know you got a house there now - he'd let me have money to build it. You know, to pay for it. I went to the Barnes Lumber at the time and talked to them and they said 'Well, of course, we'll help you.' So I figured out everything that I need - I got me a set of plans and I figured out what I need to build a house and we took it to build the materials to the lumber dealer, and I told them what I had and they said 'no problem.' So now. I could build the whole house - and this is nothing interior, no sheetrock or anything - but I could frame up the house for twelve hundred dollars. So I gave them the building materials and they brought the stuff out and dumped it on my yard and they were gone. I didn't see them. I didn't even see them when they were out there. So that means I could build a house.
Ms. Brand:	Where did you get plans from? What does that mean 'you got plans'?
Mr. Luck:	I was working for a contractor and he just happened to have a lot of plans and he had one and I sort of revised it and built a house from that.
Ms. Brand:	I see.
Mr. Luck:	So he didn't really think that I could build a house because he was paying me, I think it was a dollar an hour - carpenter.
Ms. Brand:	This is the man who cursed a lot.
Mr. Luck:	No no - this is another fellow altogether. He was out of my life. This is a building contractor in Charlottesville.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, that's right.
Mr. Luck:	And when - well, let me finish the story of building the house.
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Mr. Luck:	So I had all this materials out on the yard and my father was a carpenter, and my father-in-law was a carpenter. The two of us on the first Saturday - it was a sunny day like today - so we all met at this job site and we started framing the house. When people went to work on Saturday morning they didn't see anything but my basement foundation and when they came back home that afternoon, late afternoon, we had the walls up and had some of the rafters on the roof! And they just couldn't believe it. Well, it was actually four. It was really four of us because I had a brother-in-law who helped.
Ms. Brand:	Nancy's brother.
Mr. Luck:	Right. So we framed that up and then - Nancy and I built the house for the next six months. Day and night, or afternoons, evenings and nights. No Sundays. Because we never worked on Sunday. So we built the house and six months later, just like I said the two of us, we were able to move into the house. And it was about 98 percent complete.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Mr. Luck:	But anyway, after we got the house under the roof, we went back to the bank and asked the man for some money. (Pause) And he made a loan. (Pause) and I almost fell over. He made this loan - it didn't take but, like, forty-five hundred dollars to build my house.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. That's amazing.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. We got the loan and started paying things off. Paid the lumber dealer, and - before we finished paying that we were, naturally we had moved in and the house was livable. So from there we just started doing things and...
	(singing begins in the background)
Mr. Luck:	Is that going to bother you?
	(Discussion about singing. Decide it is too loud to continue recording there. Pause for a minute and begin recording again. Ms. Brand accidentally switches the recording speed from 'standard' to 'low' [counter is at 151] - will try to adjust on Mr. Luck's copy and on digital recording)
Ms. Brand:	Alright. I think we'll be alright.
	(Singing continues)
Mr. Luck:	Ok. The contractor I was working for when I started building my house - I went to work one morning and told him I was going to be framing the house that day. Well, he knew better. He acted like he just couldn't believe it. Cause he was paying me 90 cents an hour, that's right. I remember now.
Ms. Brand:	Not even a whole dollar.
Mr. Luck:	No. So I told him what I was doing - I told him day after day what I was doing on the house. So he asked me that particular day - he said 'well, what are you doing to do on your house today, Carlton?' I said, 'when I go home I'm going to put the shingles on the roof. But he just didn't believe that because it was impossible. So on my way home that afternoon, I just happened to look in my rearview mirror and I saw his little pickup following me, but he stayed at a distance hoping I wouldn't see him.
Ms. Brand:	(laughs)
Mr. Luck:	I just acted like I didn't see him. I pulled into my yard - I didn't have driveway, just a yard - and I pulled into the yard. And about a minute or two minutes, he pulled in behind me and he got out and shook his head and said 'well, you were really telling the truth, weren't you?' I said 'of course I was telling you the truth. You thought I've been lying?' he said 'I don't know how you could build the house with the money I'm paying you.' I said, 'well, a lot of praying and it worked out.' So he was outdone. I went back to the work the next day and he told the guys 'you know, Carlton is really building a house and he's got it under-the-roof' so anyway I stayed with him just a little while longer. He wouldn't give me any more money. So I met a guy -
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Mr. Luck:	He just wouldn't...
Ms. Brand:	I thought you were about to tell me he gave you a raise!
Mr. Luck:	Oh no. He was paying other carpenters - he was using other carpenters, but for 90 cents, I think he did give me a dollar... maybe up to a dollar, but never over.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	But he was paying other guys like six dollars. An hour. And so -
Ms. Brand:	The other guys were white?
Mr. Luck:	Yeah, they were white. So they were getting six dollars an hour.
Ms. Brand:	That's why, right?
Mr. Luck:	Oh yes. That's why. So he was working me over time for that kind of money. So the drywall man who was doing all the sheetrock for him, he came by and saw me working and he said 'I sure would like to hire you.' I said 'well, hey. What do you have to offer?' he said 'well, I'll give you 50 cents an hour more than you're getting.' Which, that would be a dollar and a half. So I said 'yes, I'm interested,' so the following week he hired me. So the other fellow I had been working for, he came back and tried to get me. He said 'I'll give you 50 cents an hour more if you come back and work for me.' I said 'no way. I'll never work for you again.' So I didn't. So I just stayed with the drywall man for, I think, like 2 years I worked for him and then he didn't like - he said I was learning so much that he had to get rid of me.
Ms. Brand:	The sheetrock guy.
Mr. Luck:	Right. So he let me go and I started doing different jobs from then on and a lot of times I worked for myself, you know? When I say 'work for myself' - self employed.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	And I just went from there, I started doing a little job and then I'd get a permanent job with another contractor. I managed to make a little more money and finally got the way I could handle my situation.
Ms. Brand:	Right, because all this time you were making payments on the loan, I assume?
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. But they put them so low that I could handle them. They didn't pressure me at all. Then I started getting on my feet and things got a lot better. From there...
Ms. Brand:	Do you want to do this outside? Do you think it would be better?
Mr. Luck:	Anywhere is better, cause I know this is not doing you any good
Ms. Brand:	Well, it is picking it up, but -
	(Mr. Luck and Ms. Brand move upstairs to a quiet room.)
Ms. Brand:	Ok. So we're upstairs now.
Mr. Luck:	Ok.
Ms. Brand:	So you finally got - you got on your feet.
Mr. Luck:	Right. And what that means, I was sort of able to pay my bills (laughs).
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	And from there I went to different building contractors and I stayed with them. About everyone I worked for after that I stayed several years, because they treated me fair, you know. Well...
Ms. Brand:	Are these contractors in Charlottesville?
Mr. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	And you were living in Esmont.
Mr. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	How would you get -
Mr. Luck:	Oh, I had an automobile. I would drive.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. Your own.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yes. I've always had an automobile
Ms. Brand:	Ok. What does that mean 'always'?
Mr. Luck:	Well, ever since I got out of the army. I had one before I went in the army, but I bought one as soon as I got out of the army. I'm not much at walking (laughs), cause I lived out in the country like 14-15 miles out.
Ms. Brand:	Right, right. In White Hall, you mean.
Mr. Luck:	White Hall, yes. And then when I was here, moved to Esmont - still this is like 15-16 miles from Charlottesville.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	So I had to have a car in order to get to work.
Ms. Brand:	Was there public transportation from here to Charlottesville?
Mr. Luck:	No... 2-3 times they had a little public transportation, but I never ever rode it. I always had to have an automobile because, you know, I never know when I'm going to have to go from one job to the next and without transportation it just was impossible. And I had to work.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	So I worked for contractors 2-3 more local contractors and they treated me OK. Then I got a job with a big contractor in Charlottesville - worked out at Copeley Hill. I guess you know where that is.
Ms. Brand:	Uh - is it somewhere near the university?
Mr. Luck:	Part of the university, yes. Out on 29, Barracks Road area.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Mr. Luck:	So I helped build that section.
Ms. Brand:	Oh! Where the basketball courts are. U-Hall. Is that right?
Mr. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	There's dorms over there.
Mr. Luck:	That's right.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. So you helped build those.
Mr. Luck:	I helped build those.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok.
Mr. Luck:	And that was just a wonderful time. I learned a lot while I was there and all this time - and I don't know what we've said about this - have I said anything to you about being called to the ministry?
Ms. Brand:	No, actually. I have it written down that I was gonna ask about...
Mr. Luck:	Ok, well. At this time I had already been called into the ministry. So - should we get into it?
Ms. Brand:	It's your call - if you're ready.
Mr. Luck:	Ok. In nineteen and... well, let me go back a little bit. After Nancy and I got married, her father was her pastor. He was Reverend W. D. Ward. (pause) and she told me-I had been a church-goer before I married her, but then I got a sort of bum deal in the army, so I just stopped going to church. So she told me after we got married, 'well, you know you're going to have to go to church.' Well, I didn't rebel against that, so I started going and to my surprise (turns on heater), a year after I started going to church an amazing thing happened to me. I was listening to my radio, remodeling the house for a lady in the spare time. I was listening to this preacher on the radio and he convinced me that I was in the church but I did not have eternal life. He really got my attention, so he told me what I had to do, so I got ready for that. A 'revival,' as we call it, started up - was going on in one of my father-in-law's churches.
Ms. Brand:	Where was he a minister? I think at Mount Pleasant?
Mr. Luck:	He was minister at Mount Pleasant, but he also was a minister up in Nelson County at the same time. I went to the revival up there that night...
Ms. Brand:	That was in Mount Pleasant? I mean in Nelson (County)?
Mr. Luck:	No, this was in Nelson County at Ebenezer Baptist. And while I was sitting there, listening to the man preach, he just asked a question. Well, he said, 'will all of the saved people, or all the Christian people, raise your hand?' Well everybody in the church raised their hand but me. And he saw that. Then he said, 'now I want all of the sinners to raise their hand.' Well, at that point I still didn't raise my hand because I wasn't sure. From what I had heard... I don't know what I am. So he picked me out of that whole crowd of people and pointed his finger and said, 'you, young man in the corner...' I said, 'Yes sir!' He said, 'I asked all the Christians to raise their hand and you didn't raise yours.' I said 'no sir.' He said, 'well, then I asked all the sinners to raise their hand and you still didn't raise yours.' I said, 'no, I didn't.' He said, 'well, are you a Christian?' I said, 'I don't really know.' 'Are you a sinner?' 'I don't even know that.' On my way back - he didn't know what else to say to me! That's all the information he could give. So on the way back I was riding with my father-in-law. He said, 'you know, you really put me on the spot.' I said, 'what do you mean?' He said, 'well, we were thinking of making you a deacon in the church and you don't even know if you're a Christian.' I said, 'I really don't know...' and he went through a routine, as the Baptists will go through: do you believe this, and do you believe that, and do you believe the other? And if you believe this, that makes you a Christian. I said, 'yeah, I believe all of that!' He said, 'do you believe Jesus Christ is the son of God?' I said, 'of course I believe it.' 'And do you believe he died for your sins?' I said, 'I believe that.' I said, 'but I was listening to Dr. Oliver B. Green was coming on the radio and he told me out of the eighth chapter of Romans, he said 'if you don't have the Spirit of Christ, you're none of his.' And I said, 'I don't have the spirit of Christ in me, and I know I don't.' So he told me I'm not saved. He said, 'if you die today you might have your name on the church roll, but you're going to hell.' Just like that. And it frightened me. So I started praying the only way I knew how and asked the Lord to save me. When I came back - left this church that night, and my father-in-law told me that I had him on such a spot - I didn't know what else to do. We sat and talked for perhaps half an hour before we went into the house after we got back home. And... Anyhow, I don't want to go to hell when I die and, you know, so I'm letting him know this. Well, it just happened - this was on, like a Friday night. And Sunday service revival was starting at Mount Pleasant, where he was my pastor. So I went to church that Sunday morning and I was so out of it, not knowing what's going to happen to me, and all I could do is just silently pray. And sitting in the church that day, my oldest son-at that point he was just a little babe. He was born, like May, and this was the first Sunday in September same year: 1956. So when I'm sitting there, just listening to the sermon and I just don't know what to do and all of a sudden I felt two persons - one grab me by each arm - and actually lifted me up out of the seat and put me in the aisle and march me up to the front of the church. And there was no one. No one visible. And I went up there, I was 24 years old at the time. I went up to the front of this church and I stood there, tears running down my cheeks. I didn't know what was going on. I knew it was somebody, but I couldn't see them.
Ms. Brand:	Meaning, the people who were grabbing you.
Mr. Luck:	It was no people. Right. It had to be angels. It had to be. And they led me up there, and I was just standing there crying. Not 'boo-hooing', but just crying. So my father-in-law told one of the deacons to let me have a seat. So I sat on the front seat in the church and my father-in-law was preaching. At the end of the service, the end of the preaching, this old man, old preacher from Charlottesville, he was sitting in the pulpit and he told my father-in-law, he said, 'we'd better go down and pray for this young man'-or 'boy,' whatever he called me. He was like, 70 years plus. And when he said 'let's go down and pray for him,' my father-in-law and the other ministers that were in there, they just walked down to where I was, and this old man he leaped out of the pulpit over top of the offering table and landed on the floor at my feet, and I almost fainted.
	(end of second interview, first part)
Ms. Brand:	The Seventy-year old did.
Mr. Luck:	Yes! And that almost scared me out of my wits, so...
Ms. Brand:	Who was it?
Mr. Luck:	He was a Reverend Barnett. I don't remember his first name.
Ms. Brand:	But he was from Charlottesville.
Mr. Luck:	Right. And he was what they call a 'holy and sanctified preacher.'
Ms. Brand:	Ohh, ok.
Mr. Luck:	A Holiness
Ms. Brand:	Pentecostal.
Mr. Luck:	Yes, Pentecostal. So they came over, and they stood over me, and this man - I'll never forget this as long as I remember anything - he just took his hand and gently laid them on the top of my head and he said some words in a tongue that I had no idea what it was. But when he did this, the power of the Living God came into me - I mean it almost knocked me out - and went down through my whole body. I felt just a surge going right through me. And I knew at that moment that I was saved. That I had eternal life, and I had not had any questions about it since then. It has been settled. The church was full of people, and I guess I'll always remember this: the people were saying all around, 'he's drunk!' 'he's crazy!' 'he's losing his mind!' These are the comments that the people made about me.
Ms. Brand:	You could hear them.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yes. They said these things and I didn't know - I didn't know what was happening. I knew I wasn't drunk, I didn't think I was crazy, and I knew I hadn't lost my mind. But then I realized even the same day that the Lord came into my life, and He saved me and He gave me his spirit. And I knew from that moment on that I have eternal life. And there's no doubt or no question in my mind about that. So this seals my salvation as far as I ever care. That was in nineteen and fifty six, did I say? Now I'm going to jump ahead now...
Ms. Brand:	Ok...
Mr. Luck:	And then in nineteen and sixty five the Lord called me into the ministry. And at this time I was working on Copeley Hill, as I told you. The strangest thing happened. I preached my first sermon in this church.
Ms. Brand:	This here, New Green Mountain?
Mr. Luck:	New Green Mountain. I'd moved my membership here then, and I preached my first sermon the first Sunday in December Nineteen and sixty five. It's a curious thing because I was 33 years old in 1965 and even before I got saved I said if I ever preached, I'd have to do it while I was 33. I never thought I'd preach, but it did and I was 33 and then the following month I was 34. A month after I preached. So anyway, I preached my first sermon, and then the amazing thing happened. Went back to work at Copeley Hill the next day and on the job I was praying and thinking about my sermon that I had just preached, and I talked to God. You know what I told Him? I said, 'here I preached a sermon, and I have a bible here, but, I said, 'I - to be honest, I don't know if this is Your word, or even if it's true, though I preached it. And I said, 'if what I read in the bible is true, then it's got to be more to it than this.' I said, 'I'll be dealing with the souls of men and I'll have to know that this word is true.' I didn't know at that point, so I prayed. The next day I sat down to eat my lunch in my pick-up - my car. I didn't have a pick-up - in my car. I always ask God to bless the food before I would eat it. I did that and when I did - I had my bible. I was going to read my bible as I eat - and I heard a voice say 'I want you to read the 16th chapter of the book of Mark.' I had never read it. I had heard it read by preachers, but I never read it. So I opened it and I read it. It's only, like, 21-22 verses. I got down to the end of it, it came to the Great Commission. It says, 'go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved, but he that believes not shall be damned.' Well, I had heard this for years, and that's as far as it ever went so when I got to that point, I simply closed my bible and was ready to lay it down. Then I heard God's audible voice. It said, 'read the rest of the chapter.' Well, nobody else has ever read it, why should I read it? So I flipped the book back open and I read and - this is in December 1965 - when I read the rest of Mark 16 after what I just quoted, the next line said, 'and these signs shall follow them that believe: in my name shall they cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' Well, when I read that I broke out in a sweat. As I said, this was in December and it was pretty chilly. I broke out in a sweat because of fear. I reached over to grab the doorknob on my vehicle to jump out and to run to flee from the presence of God and I heard the voice again. He said, 'where are you going?' Just like that! I said, 'I got to go!' You know what God said to me, honey? He said, 'wherever you go, I'm there.' I sat there and settled it. well, 'this is real.' And I know that God has really said this to me, but I didn't know how this was going to happen. How was this word going to be proven to me that it's the truth. I think it was like the following weekend, I didn't know what was going on, but the next Monday the superintendent on the job when I went to work, he was standing there talking to one of the time-keepers. I went up on the 3rd floor, where I was working, and I asked him. I said, 'I see Mr. Warner is back. Where has he been?' I don't know why I asked such a dumb question, none of my business. He said, 'well, his wife is ill and she's dying. He's been at the hospital by her bedside because she's dying and he wanted to be there when she dies.' So I just threw my tools on the floor and I ran back downstairs where he was and said, 'Mr. Warner, I hate to interrupt you, but I have to do this.' I said, 'I hear that your wife is sick.' So he dismissed the timekeeper and was started talking. I said 'I'd like to know how she is.' I'd never done this before-to anyone!
Ms. Brand:	So Mr. Warner was...
Mr. Luck:	He was the superintendent for R.E. Lee on that particular job. So he said his wife was named Louise, she was in the University of Virginia hospital and said 'she's dying.' The doctor told her she might live seven days. He said she has two holes in her heart the size of a quarter.
Ms. Brand:	My goodness...
Mr. Luck:	He said, but that's not bothering her, she's had that for years. She had that from a blockage and the blood would not flow. She's already had two heart operations, so she didn't want to go under the knife again. So, 'Mr. Warner, I tell you, I would like to go pray for your wife.' I had never prayed for anyone at this point. I said, 'I would like to go to the hospital and pray for your wife.' And he said, 'go on your own faith, not mine.' I said, 'well, alright.' So I came home that afternoon, when I got home from work and told Nancy. Well, at the first place I told her I had to go back to the hospital and pray for this lady. She said, 'well, you don't have to go today, do you?' I said, 'I must go today.' I don't know why. There was an urgency, but I didn't know why. So I worked around the house for a half hour or so, took a shower, got in my vehicle and started back University Hospital. On my way over there I spoke to the Lord and said, 'still I don't know what's going on. This word has to be proven to me or else I won't preach.' And I said, 'I read Mark 16, because You told me to read it.' And it said I could lay hands on the sick and the sick would recover. I said 'I'm going to pray for a woman that I had never seen. She's dying.' I told God just like this. I said, 'if she dies I won't believe any of the bible. As far as I care there's no truth in it.' I said, 'but if she lives, I'll preach and I'll believe your word.' I went there with fear and trembling and when I met the lady and talked to her, I said 'how does she feel?' She said, 'well, I feel good seeing a preacher.' She told me she had been there so many days and no preacher had been there to see her. She said, 'but I'm ready to die. Doctor said seven days I'll be gone.' So the Lord spoke to me internally - I didn't hear any voice this time - and let me know that I could tell her she was going to live. I said, 'Mrs. Warner, if you hold on for a little while I guarantee you'll walk out of this hospital.' Now, you know you have to be insane to say something like that, when the doctors had already given her up. I talked to her a little while and she said, 'well, you know, I think I can hold on. But anyway, I'm ready to die.' After she told me her life story. She said she told God she had a 12-year-old daughter, she would at least like to live long enough - until she's 15. After the whole thing, I was sitting there all this time talking to her and at the end of her story I said, 'Mrs. Warner, may I pray for you?' she said, 'please do.' and I stood to my feet. And when I did, I took my right hand - I guess I'll never forget this - and laid it on her shoulder while she's lying on her back in the bed. I took my left hand and reached toward heaven... and I prayed. To God. And it was the shortest prayer I had prayed until today, and I never knew a word that I said. I prayed - the only thing I know that I said was 'amen.' When I finished praying I was standing there just like this with my hand on her and the other hand in the air... inside I was in a panic because I knew this woman was still dying. I was afraid to open my eyes because if she died, I might as well die too. I stood there for a moment and wouldn't open my eyes and then all of a sudden I felt the power of God like a bolt of lightening. It hit me in my hand and went down through me into her. Now, you know the hospital floors are concrete and she was in the bed, and that whole bed shook. And she said, 'I feel like I've been born again.' I still had my eyes closed because I was afraid to open them. When she said that I opened my eyes, and I thanked the Lord because I knew that the woman had been touched by the power of God and that she was going to live, and I knew it. So I said, 'Mrs. Warner, the very next time the doctors examine you they'll find a definite improvement in your condition. She said, 'do you really think so?' I said, 'I know so.' I was sure of it then. At this point I told her goodbye and I left and went on back home. Next morning, I went to work. Back to Copeley Hill. About 3 o'clock that afternoon the superintendent came to the job site to the building where I was working and he came and got me and said 'Carlton, guess what? Guess what?' I wondered why in the world - I said 'what's wrong with the man, you know?' - he said, 'Louise is going home today!' that was his wife. He said the doctors called and said she's ok. She can go home today.
Ms. Brand:	Wow.
Mr. Luck:	So he went to get her and he picked her up. She walked out of the hospital just like I told her, got in the car, and went home. The next morning - I didn't get to see her that night - the next morning she got up and made coffee for her husband before he went to work. He told me this. The second morning, she got out of bed, made coffee and fixed him an egg breakfast. He ate this and went to work and he told me what was going on. He said, 'but, Louise wants you to come by and see her.' So I went by the third day and when I knocked on the door (knocks on table), she answered the door. She said, 'I'm so glad to see you.' and she told me the story of how God had raised her up and she was doing fine. And now, to end the story, she lived 15 years. She did her grocery shopping, she did whatever she wanted to do, she drove her big Cadillac where she wanted to go, and everything was alright with her. That was fifteen years extra she lived.
Ms. Brand:	And, so I guess that meant you were obligated! (laughs)
Mr. Luck:	That meant it. So, you know.
Ms. Brand:	The contract was sealed.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yes. So this made me know that I have a ministry, and it made me know that I can believe the word of God. Then I had friction from people, and that has multiplied. For years now there has been a conflict between me and a lot of people, especially preachers, ministers. Because most of them just don't go along with what I believe. See, I take the bible literally. I mean, most the people don't, that I know. But I do: what I read - I believe it - means what it says. I don't try to excuse it to something else. If people ask me to pray for them, I pray for them. I pray for many people. I've seen God work miracles here - there are people in this community that had heart trouble and I prayed for them. God healed their heart conditions. One, I could almost throw a rock from here to his house back up the road, here. What happened to him, he had a heart condition, and I went over to University Hospital to see him and Brother Jordan down here, who just came in, he was one of his best friends. He was there to see him, so when I walked into the hospital he said, 'well, Reverend Luck is here. I know God's going to heal me.' The fellow told me he made a statement. He said, 'I'll promise God right now that if he healed me of this heart condition I'll go to church every Sunday.' I stopped him right there: 'don't do that because you can get yourself in some big trouble. Because if you say this and don't mean it, you will be in trouble.' I said, 'just withdraw that statement.' So he did. He doesn't even go to church. God healed him of his heart condition, he's never had another problem with it. That's just one person. I had one in this church who had a heart condition, I prayed for him and God healed him. Another one over at Keene - who has two sisters in here right now - he had a heart condition and I was on my way to Charlottesville, Nancy and I, and they didn't ask me to come by but I just found out he was having problems with his heart. I just drove by and told Nancy, 'I'm going in to pray for the man.' I went in and prayed for him and God healed him of his heart condition, to my knowledge. This was years ago. He hasn't had any more problems with that, you know. So I prayed for lots of people and God has honored that and at this point I'm just... Associate Minister here at this church (New Green Mountain Baptist Church), and this coming Sunday I have to preach. I was going to baptize a man, but I won't be baptizing him this Sunday. I'm going to do it the second or third Sunday in November. And I expect God to do some great things for him to be baptized. We have a baptismal pool...
Ms. Brand:	Oh, I was just going to ask: you don't go down to the river...
Mr. Luck:	No. I was baptized in a river.
Ms. Brand:	Were you?
Mr. Luck:	First time. Second time I was baptized in DC in church. But God is real, honey, and his word is true, you know. And this is what I like: I don't have to read... I don't read the bible and then try to figure out some way to discredit God. I believe his word means everything it says. I don't have to try to interpret it, God has already given me interpretation. The only thing I have to do is read it and apply it. This is what I do with people. (pause) And? Where else do we go?
Ms. Brand:	Um, ok, wait. I had some... as you were going along... well, one is: where did you go to school of divinity... or where did you...
Mr. Luck:	Ok. Good question!
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok.
Mr. Luck:	For school of Divinity I spent three years... just the Lord and me out here in Esmont out in the woods.
Ms. Brand:	Huh...
Mr. Luck:	I mean, when I wanted to meet with the Lord I'd go out and sit on trees and stumps and things with my bible and talk to the Lord, and he would talk back to me and tell me things, and he would tell me the very things that were going to happen to me from day to day with people. And every last one of them came true. So I have not been to the seminary or had any bible training, other than from the Lord Himself.
Ms. Brand:	Right.
Mr. Luck:	And? I'm not the worst preacher I've ever heard. In fact I kind of enjoy my preaching! (smiles)
Ms. Brand:	It would be hard for me to believe that you're a bad preacher, given our interviews.
Mr. Luck:	Well, I don't think I'm a bad preacher. People just don't like to face the truth. The word means what it says, and I'll tell you what. I would like to invite you here this coming Sunday.
Ms. Brand:	Ok, I'd love to come.
Mr. Luck:	Would you?
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, I'd love to.
Mr. Luck:	Now, our services start at 11. our Sunday school starts at a quarter to ten...
Ms. Brand:	In the morning
Mr. Luck:	In the morning. Preaching starts...
Ms. Brand:	Sunday school starts at 7 in the morning??
Mr. Luck:	No, no... quarter to ten.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, quarter to ten. Alright.
Mr. Luck:	And then, the worship service starts at 11 o'clock Sunday morning.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Mr. Luck:	And we would just be delighted to have you here...
Ms. Brand:	Oh, I'd be happy to come.
Mr. Luck:	And Pastor told me last night, I will be preaching Sunday.
Ms. Brand:	Alright.
Mr. Luck:	Oh great! And I preach the word and I believe what it says. And that's all I have to say, unless you ask me a question.
Ms. Brand:	Oh... Gosh, you're so good at just, you know, doing it on your own so I... um... oh yeah. So, suddenly you had a son over here and I didn't hear about all that, so how about having children? I know you had more than one.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah... I have a daughter, and I have three sons from the age of 45 down to 31. My youngest is 31 and he's living in Illinois. All of them are married.
Ms. Brand:	All married. Un, so - you know, you were telling me about moving around to different houses. You were having... your first child was born during this time, while you were moving around?
Mr. Luck:	Yes, first child was born while we were renting the first house we rented.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. So that was the one where...
Mr. Luck:	Where the stove-door fell off.
Ms. Brand:	That's right.
	(laughter)
Mr. Luck:	So that's where he was born, and the last one was born in the house where we're living in now.
Ms. Brand:	Ok, so that's the house - you're living now in the house that you built in 1956.
Mr. Luck:	Right. Actually two - the last two were born in that house. Because we build the house in nineteen and... moved in March of '60. But one of them was born in '65 and the other was born in '70.
Ms. Brand:	'65 and '70... actually, let me write this out clearly. Your first child was a son.
Mr. Luck:	The first was a daughter.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. And her name?
Mr. Luck:	My daughter is Berlinda.
Ms. Brand:	B-E-R...
Mr. Luck:	L-I-N-D-A
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Mr. Luck:	And her age is 48, I believe. And my next... first son, his name is Andre and he's 46. 45, excuse me. Whew, had to think about it! And then Carlton Jr., or Carlton the Second.
Ms. Brand:	Now, is that with an 'E'? C-A-R-L
Mr. Luck:	No E
Ms. Brand:	Ok. T-O-N
Mr. Luck:	He's 35.
Ms. Brand:	You call him Carlton the Second?
Mr. Luck:	Right. Well, he goes 'junior.' Doesn't matter, same thing. He's 35. And then Marcus, he's 31.
Ms. Brand:	Ok.
Mr. Luck:	Now, ok. He must - Carlton must be thirty s... no, that's right. Let's say that's right.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. So that's the four of them.
Mr. Luck:	That's the four of them.
Ms. Brand:	And they're all married.
Mr. Luck:	All married.
Ms. Brand:	Marcus lives in Illinois.
Mr. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	...And the rest of them?
Mr. Luck:	Carlton and Andre - Carlton lives in Charlottesville.
Ms. Brand:	Wait, Carlton you said.
Mr. Luck:	Yeah. And Andre, he lives halfway between Esmont and Charlottesville on Route 20.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. Where is that?
Mr. Luck:	Where you come, when you come from Charlottesville.
Ms. Brand:	He lives on route 20?
Mr. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. Beautiful part of the country.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. And Berlinda lives in Esmont, right behind us.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, great. Ok, so she's the only one who's really right next door.
Mr. Luck:	Next door, oh yeah. Ok...?
Ms. Brand:	Um...
Mr. Luck:	And you want to know what they do?
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Mr. Luck:	Berlinda's a school teacher.
Ms. Brand:	Ok, where does she teach?
Mr. Luck:	She teaches in Buckingham.
Ms. Brand:	Buckingham County.
Mr. Luck:	Yes. And Andre, he's a professor at Piedmont College.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. What does he teach?
Mr. Luck:	Well - I don't know what he teaches. He's assistant professor and he (shows business card). He's in charge of what you see there...
Ms. Brand:	Right. reads: "Employer and Career Services Manager."
Mr. Luck:	Right. And he's assistant professor. And I guess most anything, because he's qualified. He has his Master's degree in Business administration. He also graduated from UVa.
Ms. Brand:	That's where he got his...
Mr. Luck:	He got his Associate at UVa, and then he went to Regent University and that's where he got his Master's.
Ms. Brand:	Right. And both of them were in business? All his degrees are in Business Administration?
Mr. Luck:	Yes. Right. And, Carlton - he is a part-time supervisor at the main post office in Charlottesville.
Ms. Brand:	Ooh. That's kind of a scary job to have these days. (referring to Anthrax attacks/scare in which Anthrax-infested letters were sent to politicians and media people in DC & NY)
Mr. Luck:	Right, well, I guess he doesn't mind. I hope he doesn't. I think he's safe.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah.
Mr. Luck:	And Marcus, he's in Illinois and I'm not really sure. He had a job with GTE, that was his first big job, and I'm not really sure what he's doing. He's having an interview today!
Ms. Brand:	Oh, ok. Good!
Mr. Luck:	And so, he's sort of job-hunting, but he's working.
Ms. Brand:	So you stay in touch with all of them...
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah - we talked to him last night.
Ms. Brand:	How did he end up in Illinois?
Mr. Luck:	Well, when he got the job with GTE he had to have training, and he had 6-months training in Dallas, Texas; 6-months training in Tampa, Florida; 6-months training in Virginia Beach, Virginia;
Ms. Brand:	Jeez.
Mr. Luck:	And then after that they shipped him out to Indianapolis, Indiana, where he's been ever since. And they merged with Verizon, or whoever it is and he was cut off. Lost his job and he's been trying to really get himself established since then. So that's about the extent of that. But he's doing ok.
Ms. Brand:	So what was it like to raise kids out in Esmont?
Mr. Luck:	Well, it was ok. I mean, it wasn't... you know, we're all country folk and it didn't bother them at all... everything was limited, of course. Our resources, and finances, but we seemed to manage ok. Things worked out alright for us.
Ms. Brand:	Right. What was Nancy doing?
Mr. Luck:	Nancy worked in the school, the Yancey School a good bit of the time.
Ms. Brand:	As a teacher?
Mr. Luck:	Well, no. I think she was managing the cafeteria, I believe. Then she went to school and got certified - a degree - in nutrition. And I don't know what else she does...
Ms. Brand:	She works for JABA now, right?
Mr. Luck:	Yes.
Ms. Brand:	What does that stand for?
Mr. Luck:	Jefferson Area Board for the Aging. But first fifteen years of our marriage she didn't work anywhere. She took care of the children. And I had to make my pennies stretch.
Ms. Brand:	Mm-hm.
Mr. Luck:	Ok?
Ms. Brand:	So you were in Charlottesville pretty regularly.
Mr. Luck:	Yes, most of my life I worked generally around Charlottesville. Because usually there was nothing out in the country.
Ms. Brand:	Did the rest of the family ever go out there? Was there any reason...
Mr. Luck:	No... Well, see none of my family went anywhere to work until they got out of school, and then they just went on their own and got jobs, got married...
Ms. Brand:	But what about, just outings - like, to the movies or...
Mr. Luck:	Oh! Well, by the time my children came along - I don't really know where they went! I mean, you know, Nancy and I didn't go to movies a lot. Very, very rarely. In fact, the last movie I went to see was so long ago, I'll tell you the name of it: it was "The Color Purple"!
Ms. Brand:	Oh, my goodness! When it was in the movie theaters...
Mr. Luck:	I haven't been in the movie theatre since!
Ms. Brand:	Oh gosh.
Mr. Luck:	So, you know, its just something we just didn't do that much of. Didn't really have any reason...
Ms. Brand:	That must have been, I think, either early '90s, or maybe even late '80s?
Mr. Luck:	Maybe late '80s, I would think.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, that was a long time ago. (laughs) did you like it?
Mr. Luck:	Oh, I loved it.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah. It's a good movie. It's a great book.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah.
Ms. Brand:	Um, so what kinds of things did you do? well, you said Sundays you didn't... it sounds like you were working six days a week, and Sundays was the only day off.
Mr. Luck:	Well, not being financially able to do much, I just worked six days a week. Five-six days a week. Not six every week, but I usually had a job and a part-time job. I'm a carpenter, so I would go around and remodel houses, or do basements and stuff like that to make ends meet. And we did fairly well. I mean, we didn't have any extra, but what we had was sufficient.
Ms. Brand:	So what would you do for leisure? What kinds of things did you do when you had a little bit of time?
Mr. Luck:	Now that was kind of strange. We don't - Nancy and I - talk about it any time. We used to travel almost every two-three weekends, or every other weekend or so, we would go somewhere: to Pennsylvania, or to Maryland, or to New York, or...
Ms. Brand:	Oh! Those are long trips!
Mr. Luck:	Right! We would just get in the car and go somewhere.
Ms. Brand:	This is with the kids?
Mr. Luck:	Yeah.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. You must have had a big car.
Mr. Luck:	Well, it was... 4, 5 of us... see, after the two oldest got out of high school - or in high school, really - they didn't travel with us. When it was only two we traveled everywhere around the time I was called into the ministry, we just got in... we went to tent revivals up in Pennsylvania, and in Maryland... to A.A. Allen revivals... Oh, I mean, we wouldn't miss one if it was close. And we'd just say, 'well, we're gonna go.' We'd get in the car and go for a weekend, a whole week if we needed to! And enjoyed ourselves. Then after the two oldest got into high school, they didn't want to be traveling around with us, so ...
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) Those old folks...
Mr. Luck:	And it was the next two, right. So we would just go wherever we wanted to go. We didn't have any curfew or any other reason to hurry back home, we'd come back
Ms. Brand:	Because you were self employed.
Mr. Luck:	Right. Most of - a lot of it I was self employed. So we had a good time traveling. And it was: Nancy and I talk about it - we didn't have much finance, but you know, we could go wherever we wanted to go. And we went. I mean, I guess every month we took at least two trips.
Ms. Brand:	Wow. Where would you stay?
Mr. Luck:	We stayed in hotels.
Ms. Brand:	Yeah?
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. (pause) Uh, cheap hotels.
	(laughter)
Mr. Luck:	And then, sometimes we'd stay with my relatives, so...
Ms. Brand:	(about the recorder:) it seems to be turning a little slow, but I guess that's normal... so sometimes...
Mr. Luck:	Ok, I don't know where to go from here. But, yeah. We did a lot of traveling. But we don't do much now. Yeah, we enjoyed it. We had a really enjoyable life.
Ms. Brand:	Sounds like you're still having.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yes. We were just told this morning that after first of the year we were going to drive up to Illinois.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, to visit your son.
Mr. Luck:	Right.
Ms. Brand:	That's great. You said he lived in Urbana?
Mr. Luck:	He lives in Champaign.
Ms. Brand:	Champaign, right. (pause) Ok. I just thought that I should probably follow at least some of the questions that I have on my questionnaire... but I think left them downstairs. I do remember what some of them are... um.
Mr. Luck:	It's not here? (refers to some papers)
Ms. Brand:	No, that's the consent form. I know there were questions about the Yanceys, but I guess you wouldn't have really known them because by the time you moved here...
Mr. Luck:	No, well I - well, I met Judge Yancey, he was the person the school was named after.
Ms. Brand:	So that's Benjamin Franklin Yancey.
Mr. Luck:	Right. He was a judge up in, I guess New York or New Jersey or somewhere. I met him when he came down a couple of times. Years ago...
Ms. Brand:	And then his children were around here?
Mr. Luck:	I don't know. I've never met any of his children or relatives that I know of. Not even one, as far as I know.
Ms. Brand:	Alright. I remember that there were questions over there about - there's a project that someone's doing about Vinegar Hill and they were trying to get information about it, if people either went there, or knew about it, or.. different black-owned businesses...
Mr. Luck:	I spent all my childhood around in that area. I never lived there, but I spent a lot of time because I used to go there to the movies and to the restaurants and to the pool hall, and to the barbershop - oh yes, I was there quite a bit.
Ms. Brand:	Really.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah.
Ms. Brand:	There was a movie theater in Vinegar Hill?
Mr. Luck:	There was - at the foot of the hill there was the Jefferson Theater, the Lafayette Theater we used to call 'the Ranch House' because they mostly showed Westerns - that's where they found me!
	(laughter)
Ms. Brand:	You liked Westerns.
Mr. Luck:	Loved them. Still do! (laughs)
Ms. Brand:	Really.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. And the Paramount. So there was three theaters there. Jefferson, Lafayette, and Paramount.
Ms. Brand:	So what years was this, when you were...
Mr. Luck:	Oooh, well, that was all my young life.
Ms. Brand:	Right. So that was the '30s.
Mr. Luck:	'30s and '40s and '50s... And the interesting thing about the theaters, they had colored section and white section. Colored could go upstairs, and the whites downstairs. And that was that way even the last time I went.
Ms. Brand:	The last time you went it was still segregated.
Mr. Luck:	Still segregated.
Ms. Brand:	(laughs) You don't go to movies very much, do you?
Mr. Luck:	Since television I don't go to movies. And there were no televisions when I was growing up.
Ms. Brand:	Sure.
Mr. Luck:	No televisions. We did have a radio. Telephones were beginning to be popular... no electricity. Where I was born and raised we didn't even have electricity or running water. The 'running water' was a spring...
	(laughter)
Ms. Brand:	You ever go to the Joker's Barbershop?
Mr. Luck:	Yes! That's where I got my hair cut most of the time.
Ms. Brand:	Really.
Mr. Luck:	Yes. That's still there, right?
Ms. Brand:	It is still there.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. Jim Payne was one of the barbers, and Ed Gardener. Ah, man... I've forgotten the other names...
Ms. Brand:	Um, let's see if I can pull any of them up... um. Russell Daniels? Something Daniels or Russell...
Mr. Luck:	It must have been since my time...
Ms. Brand:	No, he's the six original - the 'opening six.' (laughs)
Mr. Luck:	Really.
Ms. Brand:	Jim Payne...
Mr. Luck:	Jim Payne, Ed Gardener,
Ms. Brand:	Oh. Two brothers - Zeke or something? Zach? Or... and then there was the guy who didn't have a leg...
Mr. Luck:	I don't know. I didn't meet him.
Ms. Brand:	Well, he had a...
Mr. Luck:	Artificial?
Ms. Brand:	Yeah, artificial.
Mr. Luck:	Yeah, that was after my time. See I haven't been to the barbershop since I got married. I married my barber... (laughs) Nancy cuts my hair.
Ms. Brand:	Oh does she. So you only got your hair cut up until...
Mr. Luck:	'55.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. (laughs) Well, I have - I'm friends, I guess, with Mr. Payne. I go over there a lot and I've done a lot of interviews with him. Actually, he wanted to come out here because he knew you'd be here, but his knees are bothering him so when he gets a little stronger he'll come down with me one day.
Mr. Luck:	Yeah, ok. I know Jim Payne real well. See, his wife and I sort of grew up together.
Ms. Brand:	That's right, cause she's from-
Mr. Luck:	White Hall. Yes.
Ms. Brand:	And then, I guess Nancy would have known her too, because they both went to Albemarle Training School, is that right?
Mr. Luck:	Uh, no. I went to Albemarle Training School. Nancy went to Yancey, I mean to Esmont High School, and then she went to Burley.
Ms. Brand:	Oh Esmont had a high school?
Mr. Luck:	Yeah.
Ms. Brand:	Oh, she went to Burley. Right, OK. So that's after ATS closed.
Mr. Luck:	Yeah, she didn't come over there.
Ms. Brand:	Ok. So Vinegar Hill - so: Movie theater, pool hall, uh...
Mr. Luck:	Well, on Vinegar Hill they had the theater, they had the pool hall, barbershop... and they had a retail store. They had a furniture store...
Ms. Brand:	Hm. These were all owned by African Americans?
Mr. Luck:	The retail store was not. And the furniture store, actually what is Grand Piano now. It was M.C. Thomas at the time. And then they had a bunch of restaurants that were Greek and Black.
Ms. Brand:	Greek.
Mr. Luck:	Oh, yes.
Ms. Brand:	Huh. There was a big Greek population over here?
Mr. Luck:	Right. It was then. See, they did away with all of that to build the Omni hotel. What they wanted to do is condemn the Black areas so they could move them out, and then they built the Omni hotel and the court house, and the Lewis and Clark building. Where the Lewis and Clark is now there was a fire department. The only one that was in Charlottesville was right there. They had, as I said, several restaurants. They ate more than anything else! (laughs).
Ms. Brand:	What kind of restaurants?
Mr. Luck:	Well, I don't know...
Ms. Brand:	Affordable ones?
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah! Oh yes, I mean, even I could afford to eat in there. See everything was really dirt-cheap then. For instance, if I had worked all day and wanted a bowl of beans? I could go in and pay a quarter and get a bowl of beans and some bread, and I'm happy for the rest of the night.
Ms. Brand:	So I guess there was a lot of socializing there.
Mr. Luck:	Oh yeah. Well, we used to sit around and tell tales, or go and stand out on the street and watch people go by...
Ms. Brand:	Ohhh... (laughs)
Mr. Luck:	There wasn't really much to do, but it was fun just doing that.
Ms. Brand:	Well, is there anything else you'd like to say?
Mr. Luck:	I don't know... I can't remember anything right off unless you're asking a question - I don't know just... I mean, I could think of tons of things later on, but... I don't know.
Ms. Brand:	Well, we can maybe call it a day for right now.
Mr. Luck:	Ok.
Ms. Brand:	Then if there's other stuff, or if I think of more questions, or if you think of stuff you'd like to share, then we'll just set up another appointment.
Mr. Luck:	Ok, that's fine with me.
Ms. Brand:	Alright, well thank you so much!
Mr. Luck:	Ok, thank you.
	(end of second interview)
Copyright Information: Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia This interview is publically accessible Text and images © copyright 2001 by the Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia.

Interview of Carlton Andrew Luck, Sr. on October 25, 2001 and November 1, 2001, by Mieka Brand of the Race and Place Project. (Oral History)