Interview of Pocahontas Sellers, Mary Sellers Carter, and Virginia Carter by Jean Hiatt and Roulhac Toledano of the Ridge Street Oral History Project on August 13, 1994. (Oral History)

Biographical Note
Mary Carter and Pocahontas Sellers are sisters who grew up on Ridge Street, and Virginia Carter is Mary's daughter, who also was raised in the family home on Ridge Street. In this interview, they share their memories of Ridge Street and also speak about their experiences during the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950's and the desegregation of Albemarle County schools.

Project Description
Race and Place is a project of the Virginia Center for Digital History and the Carter G. Woodson Institute for Afro-American and African Studies. The goal of the project is to chronicle the life of African-Americans in the Charlottesville, Virginia area during the period of segregation. As part of this project we have conducted a series of interviews with current residents of the Charlottesville area who were alive during that period. The project has also incorporated oral interviews conducted by other Charlottesville institutions which cover the appropriate subject area.

Notes About Our Transcriptions
The transcripts represent what was said in the interview to the best of our ability. It is possible that some words, particularly names, have been misspelled. Where we did not feel sure of spellings we have indicated this by the use of the term 'phonetically' in parentheses following the word in question. Places where words were unclear are noted by 'inaudible'. We have made no attempt to correct mistakes in grammar. Two interviewers and three interviewees took part in this interview, and separating out the individual voices was impossible. Therefore, each set of of questions and answers have been indicated with a "Q" and an "A", and may include more than one indvidual's response.

Q:Now, where was she from?
A:Here - Charlottesville.
Q:Was she born also in Charlottesville?
A:Yes. I think down on Lankford Avenue.
Q:Oh, wonderful. Lankford Avenue.
A:And then (Inaudible)
Q:Now, what about your dad?
A:Well, he was - he wasn't from - from the University - Blenheim. Blenheim, yes.
Q:You know how they got together?
A:Well, he - he - he worked for Judge Lyons (Phonetically).
Q:Oh, that beautiful house over there.
A:Over across -
Q:Yes.
A:That's where he was.
Q:Oh, that's nice.
A:And after working for him a while until he died. And after the judge died he worked for Mrs. Lyons and then that's when he - I don't know how he knew (Inaudible) and she knew him so, she decided to buy him a new house - buy him this place - this house. And she gave it to him.
Q:Who did?
A:Mrs. Lyons.
Q:Oh, that's marvelous. She really thought a lot of him. I imagine.
A:Yes. She really knew the family and we got it from her grandchildren.
Q:Children?
A:From the grandchildren - some of the little grandchildren.
Q:Oh, okay. But your - your family helped raise quite -
A:(Inaudible) my father was one of the - he worked on the farm as you would call it. And she was there with him - her and the children. He worked until (Inaudible) and left here.
Q:He lived here and (Inaudible) and that was a farm then?
A:Now and then (Inaudible) - the house and the - if you remember - he was cleaning house. (Inaudible) church down there - part of mine - part of mine - I can still remember - it's clear (Inaudible)
Q:Now, what was your dad's last name?
A:Joeseph.
Q:Joseph. So, there was -
A:Anna.
Q:Anna and Joeseph.
A:Joseph - Sellers.
Q:Sellers because he was (Inaudible) Sellers, yes. Okay, well, now I've got to get this straight who's sister to whom?
A:We two are sisters.
Q:And you are?
A:Mary Carter.
Q:Okay. This is - this is Mary Carter.
A:Mary Sellers Carter.
Q:Mary Sellers Carter and then Pocahontas Sellers?
A:Then Pocahontas Sellers and Virginia is my daughter.
Q:Oh, so, it's your daughter and sister - okay.
A:Yes.
Q:Now, Virginia your last name is Carter?
A:Right.
Q:Okay. Are there other sisters and brothers in your family?
A:Yes. Yes. There's quite a bit of us.
Q:How many were there?
A:There was six of us.
Q:Six kids? All here.
A:We were all living there until my brother died and my sister died - my two sisters died.
Q:And you all never left Charlottesville?
A:No.
Q:All of you?
A:No.
Q:You continued on here.
A:We continued on living here. She worked today.
Q:Where does she work?
A:I - I think - I think he's in a state college.
Q:Oh, I just went there - I went there for a workshop.
A:Everybody - everybody after they finished high school they went to state college.
Q:Now, what high school did you go to?
A:Went to Jefferson... But at one time my family went to - at one time we didn't have anything but just eighth grade -
Q:Oh, really?
A:The blacks only had it to the eighth grade.
Q:That's shocking.
A:We went - after I finished the eighth grade - after one year they went to Virginia State and then they switched the high schools then and I came back - and I finished in the first - I finished in the first class from Jefferson High.
Q:And was Rebecca McGuiness a teacher of hers?
A:Yes. She was in the elementary school - she was teaching - as I finished high school here I went to Virginia State and (Inaudible)
Q:And at that time Jefferson had just eleven years - was it just eleven years you went or seven years?
A:No. No. It was the eighth grade. Eighth grade and then four years of high.
Q:Now, in Texas they just still had three, correct? Now, tell me about going to Virginia State College I guess not too many girls went to college back then?
A:Yes. Very few.
Q:Really?
A:Especially down in the Tidewater section - especially, you know, not from here.
Q:But they were boys and girls too or just a girls school?
A:(Inaudible)
Q:It was a Normal school right - was it all that?
A:No. It wasn't Normal when I went there in college it was a four year college.
Q:It started out as a Normal school and then they changed it?
A:Yes.
Q:Where is it? I just went there in February. It is beautiful.
A:Yes. It is.
Q:It's on the National Register - have you been there?
A:Yes.
Q:Oh, that's fun. And that was - was it state gift - it was built for black students - it was a land grant.
A:For all types.
Q:Now - now, how many people were - were there like in your class (Inaudible)
A:I mean they had a whole lot of coloreds there and we stayed in the dormitories, dormitories for girls and a dormitory for boys.
Q:But when did you - when did you come home, I mean, in the Spring time sometime or did you come home - did you come home just for Christmas or long weekends?
A:Just on the holidays.
Q:But did you come on the train?
A:Well, train of course.
Q:That's interesting.
A:It's just a train.
Q:Oh, I love it. Well, now what - what did you study, I mean, what was the -
A:I majored in Social Studies.
Q:Oh, and when did you teach - when you came back here?
A:Yes. I taught for umpteen years - I taught here at Mary Washington. First I taught at - what is the name of that - Jefferson school.
Q:Oh.
A:I taught at Esmont.
Q:Oh, my word.
A:And I left - Mr. Bennett (Phonetically) used to be the superentendent and he left here and went to Covington and he called back for me to come to Covington and I went over and filled in, in Covington and taught there all those years there until I retired.
Q:Oh, you worked your way.
A:Yes. She did. Yes. I did.
Q:Covington I'm not familiar with where that is.
A:Covington, Virginia, over there near Hot Springs.
Q:Oh, Covington, Virginia, over there up in the mountains that's up near Hot Springs.
A:You are getting off of Ridge Street aren't you?
Q:Yes. Well (Inaudible) well, you know, you've got to figure how you get here before you - well, now, this is - I just think that is amazing. What I mean was you are older than you.
A:Well, now.
Q:You're the oldest.
A:Yes.
Q:What were you doing all this time?
A:I finished - I finished the eighth grade that year and then I went to Richmond did a summer there and I lived there one year.
Q:For the ninth grade?
A:Yes. There about and I came back here and just lived here at home.
Q:And did you finish - did you then go to Jefferson?
A:No.
Q:You didn't like that.
A:Yes. No. I did finish the eighth grade.
Q:But she was in the first class.
A:I finished in the first class - but they didn't even have -
Q: Oh, okay.
A:Of high school - of high school - first class of Jefferson High School. I was - I finished the first class of Jefferson High School.
Q:What year are we talking about here vaguely?
A: We were the first graduating class from Jefferson High School (Inaudible) - it must have been '34 - '29 because it couldn't have been '34 - no, I don't think it was in '34 it must've been in '29 or '30. Because I've got the picture up there of the first graduating class with some savable souls on it.
Q:Oh, lord.
A:(Inaudible)
Q:You got to finish up right before the depression.
A:Yes.
Q:And that's amazing that you were in college in the depression. It must've been a good place to be then - in college. And so, then you got married.
A:Oh, yes. My - my - my husband is dead.
Q:But if it's okay with you to ask you, how did you all get together?
A:Well, he - well, he - he had some friends down at (Inaudible)
Q:He is from here?
A:He is from here.
Q:And his name was?
A:Joseph Carter.
Q:Oh, there probably were a lot of Joesephs around here. And you had brothers and sisters?
A:No. I was just the only child.
Q:Well, did you get bored?
A:No, of course not. Her grandma bored her. (Inaudible)
Q:Now, you - were you raised in this house also or did you -
A:I was born here I was born in - I was born in University Hospital.
Q:In where?
A:In University Hospital.
Q:Oh, okay, okay. Well, you all were born though right in this room?
A:In this room.
Q:And you had two sisters and two brothers?
A:No. I had two sisters and two brothers. Because the oldest brother I - I remember him but I don't remember any of the other ones (Inaudible) but there was another one.
Q:Now, did they leave - they left town?
A:No. There were here, you know, Garrett Street.
Q:They died when they were young?
A:James died when he was young. The other brother Kelly, he went on.
Q:He died here in Charlottesville?
A:Yes. And I had two sisters here - I had one sister that - my oldest sister she died very early.
Q:What was her name?
A:Huh?
Q:What's her first name?
A:Gail. Gail Watson.
Q:Watson?
A:Watson - W-a-t-s-o-n. And then youngest of us died in 1987.
Q:Here.
A:Yes. That's right.
Q:Because you all inherited this house up state.
A:I was born here and the youngest one was born in this house.
Q:What's your youngest sister's name?
A:Edwina, she was the youngest.
Q:Well, how -
A:Well, see I (Inaudible) because see it was the house they were born in. Then later in -
Q:Well, now, how did the one who ended up in New Jersey did she buy something on the way or?
A:No. She thought that she wanted to go off from here and then they worked in the Park in New Jersey. And they married and they went up there to live.
Q:Now, did she also go to college?
A:No.
Q:You are the only one that went to college in your family?
A:Yes.
Q:Well, now, tell me about Mr. Carter, your - your husband Mr. Carter. What - what did he do?
A:He was working for the C & O.
Q:Oh, see the railroad was very important in those days.
A:Then -
Q:What he do there?
A:He was a mail handler.
Q:Oh, I heard that they had a hundred people working there at one time, and now hardly one.
A:Yes. I remember.
Q:That's terrible and then this train comes - the tourist train is going to go from Clifton Forge to Staunton to Charlottesville and turn around. They couldn't turn around and so that would've been a very lovely adventure. Well, now, tell me if you feel if your - how is your life different from your mamma's? Was it more exciting, less exciting, sadder, happier?
A:Happier.
Q:Was your time better and not so much -
A:My time was so much better. I wouldn't say that I had more advantages than they do so I would say that.
Q:Now, when did you graduate from high school? What year are we talking about vaguely?
A:'44. And she went to college too.
Q:Where'd you go?
A:St. Augustus College in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Q:Oh, was - in -
A:I'm wondering how this all connects to Ridge Street.
Q:Well, let me try - I felt like it was because that's what they wanted. They felt that the history of Charlottesville in terms of the black community since '54 was so important and this street represents that importance because this is, you know, 9th Street and always had white people and black people and since the 60's, down there the houses that had been white are now part black. And it shows the evolution of Charlottesville and I'm representing what you're talking about, you know, like you had more advantages than the last generation I don't know. In terms of all that Civil Rights stuff since '54 how it affected - how it affected the neighborhood and how it affected your life. Those were important years I guess.
A:I can tell you about over in Covington they used me as a guinea pig.
Q:Oh.
A:Don't put that there.
Q:Don't worry.
A:They used to lecture me to go to a white type of school to integrate the teachers in Covington.
Q:Well, see that's very meaningful right there. What happened?
A:Nothing. Everything went along fine.
Q:What grade were you teaching?
A:Oh, I was generally sixth grade.
Q:Oh, okay you taught sixth grade.
A:I taught at what do you call it? Esmont - Esmont School. They used me, as I said, as a guinea pig just to integrate those schools and children.
Q:Did they ask you to or did you feel pressured or did you -
A:No - no - no. They - they didn't pressure me. They wanted someone to do it and they - they asked if I could do and I - I did.
Q:How many kids were in your classes more or less?
A:Oh, see at the school I went to there were nothing but white kids. Nothing but white kids.
Q:That's an important part of integrating the schools.
A:And - and I had - had no - no problems - no problems.
Q:No problems, that's good.
A:And I stayed there until I retired.
Q:Well, that's good.
A:And I - I stayed there until I retired and they gave me - you came over there to my retirement.
Q:What you first did - it was not - it was not integrated.
A:I told them - they know that - I told them that - I said they used me to integrate the - the teachers - I mean to integrate the school now here I - I know - know I went there no.
Q:And then - then they had black - black students coming in there too?
A:In that school there were no blacks. It was nothing but white kids.
Q:Five years later -
A:I don't know because I - I didn't - didn't stay - I didn't stay there - I mean - like five I don't know. But the school that I was at - I was at a Watson High School and that's where I taught before I went to Esmont. And Esmont - see Watson had nothing but black students but Esmont had nothing but white except me.
Q:Wow. Oh lordy, that's bad. A lot of the pressure that was down here at Ridge Street was pretty much country. It was a bunch of farm land is that right?
A:From here all the way down to the end was a big field this was the last house on Ridge Street and the one - and the one across was the last one - was the last house on Ridge Street and there was a big field over here. And they used to have carnivals over there.
Q:Oh.
A:I remember they used to have a cow pasture - used to have cows and horses - Mr. Wheeler - B. E.
Q:B. E.?
A:B. E.
Q:Oh.
A:Used to be a real estate. B. E. Wheeler.
Q:Oh, yes. Wheeler.
A:Wheeler. But he is a white man.
Q:What -
A:Yes. There was a big field - he owned that big field and he was really big into horses. He used live down where (Inaudible) home was. Yes. And they had horses out here. Michael's corner back this a way there was nothing but horse - back - back this a way. There is a little store there.
Q:Just past the store.
A:No. Just there near the railroad on the corner of Hartman Mill Road - that's where that store was. And then Mr. Hall came out here and had a - Mr. - Mr. Hall had a store.
Q:Mr. Hall was white?
A:Yes. But he was at the same place. Yes. But he had a stroke. Did he have store up there?
Q:Now, what was the most important thing in the life on Ridge Street or in the week - I mean like church or....
A:Well, we used to go to church - church (Inaudible)
Q:Yes.
A:We went - other churches too.
Q:Ms. Radford.
A:Who?
Q:Ms. Radford - Mr. Ebenezer (Phonetically) came through.
(INAUDIBLE SECTION)
Q:So, you've gone to Mt. Zion all your life?
A:What?
Q:So, you've gone to Mt. Zion all your life?
A:Yes. I used to be - I used to be assistant organist there.
Q:Where - where did you learn to play the organ?
A:What?
Q:How did you learn to play the organ?
A:The organist that was there taught me - I mean how to play it - I - I just played - I mean there was a fella who used to come here out to the house and teach us music.
Q:On the piano? That's nice.
A:Everyone was - everyone was there.
Q:The whole family?
A:The whole family.
Q:Were all the children -
A:The whole family.
Q:Wow.
A:(Inaudible)
Q:And you played the organ there?
A:Yes. I played the organ there for years.
Q:Did you ever teach music too?
A:No. No.
Q:Wow.
A:Were you connected in any way with those students?
Q:(Inaudible) I taught at both of those.
A:Were you attending any of those?
Q:Oh, you work at Jefferson. That's right. I work for Mr. James. I work in English as a second language tutor that's how I got - when did you retire?
A:(Inaudible)
Q:Oh.
A:They always call us - she always go back but they're always calling us to come in and substitute.
Q:Oh, that sounds pretty good. What did you teach?
A:I just worked there.
Q:Receptionist? Oh.
A:Secretary to Tom Jones, secretary to George Barnett, secretary to Pauline Garrett, secretary to John Ganes (Phonetically), secretary to Tom McFerrill (Phonetically).
Q:That last at all?
A:Secretary to John Hinkley.
Q:All of Charlottesville City School?
A:Secretary to (Inaudible) Ms. Crawthorn (Phonetically) in Jefferson.
Q:Oh.
A:And I stayed with him for thirty-three years.
Q:Well, then, you saw all of the stuff going on with the integration, I guess.
A:Yes.
Q:How did that effect you alls daily life.
A:What do you mean daily life? It didn't bother me.
Q:It didn't bother you?
A:No.
Q:Well -
A:About the kids and the kids - I had - I had four of them.
Q:When you were going to school - I guess the last question is, do you feel - did it bother you any - did you feel unequal or did you not even think about it when you were with the children?
(INAUDIBLE SECTION)
A:I don't believe you thought about it too much. I realize that in later years that I had passed by Midway to get to Jefferson.
Q:And then where was Midway?
A:It was where Ridge Manor is now. That was one or that wasn't Midway - or Midway School was located there. And of course I had to pass there to get to Jefferson. Which doesn't seem right. And, you know, and but after coming out and working and went ahead, you had a job to do and you either had a white kid or a black kid, they were bad, they were children and you treated them the same. When you're working with them but yes. We realized in later life but they as a elementary school kid I don't think thought any different than them.
Q:Well, now, I - I was - I was not from here I - I lived in New Orleans. Did they close the schools here was there some sort of - for years, for a year or did they close all of the schools. I mean what in the world was going on.
A:Well, you should talk to yhose people who were, you know, when schools happened.
Q:You weren't working there then - I mean you weren't working with the schools then.
A:Yes. Probably I was working - I started here - I worked in Culpepper before coming here. And you need to talk to like, Booker Reeves, he was on the board.
Q:You - you didn't live here - all of us people whether they did it for money - all of the schools were closed. You didn't certainly have to come home.
A:Well, no, I - I didn't have to come home. I don't want to say anything I'm not sure of now, I don't have the - like I don't remember - but I remember Olivia Burtons had tons of classes at the school board office.
Q:Oh.
A:Because watching a lot of those parents - well, you need to talk to someone else that will give you the -
Q:From that age group, yes.
A:I had - I had - I had - I am still wondering why we're talking of this instead of Ridge Street.
Q:Well, lets talk more about Ridge Street. I'm with it I just can't think of any questions. Y'all think of things to say and I will just copy it down.
A:Well, some of the older houses - were you interested in some of the older houses on Ridge Street that were taken down.
Q:Yes. How did you all notice the street changing in the past twenty years?
A:I would say over there by the animal (Inaudible)
Q:Oh, the (Inaudible)
A:Yes.
Q:Actually this clipboard has this place. Well, now, for example, Mr. L. Eugene Williams was saying how the white people fled -
(End of Side A)
A:The house - the one that's in question now is that one that they built - other houses thought they've torn down quite a few when they, you know, Ridge Street used to just go straight through.
Q:Yes.
A:And then when they, I guess, decided to tear down Ridge Street through to route 64 - that's when they made this ramp to come up on to and to get to - to get to us and houses were torn down then.
Q:Quite a few houses then.
A:Yes. They were torn down then.
Q:Very nice houses.
A:Across the street from Eugene coming this way where that ramp comes up houses were torn up there and then on the other side on the right hand front of Eugene houses were torn down.
Q:What were some of the families that lived on that curb?
A:On the curb?
Q:Well, where the houses were torn down.
A:Oh, Johnson, Wood, Jones.
Q:What did these people do? Did the City pay a little money and tell them to leave?
A:They were white people that - that - that - they were white - I think there were four houses in total. (Inaudible) - Hawkins (Phonetically) - there is the old Hawkins home that's still here on the right hand side now near the Dice School. They used to own the department store downtown.
Q:Oh.
A:And the Gleasons -
Q:The Hawkins descendents are still there?
A:Yes.
Q:Some of the older Hawkins still live -
A:No. No.
Q:But they had -
A:They're still there.
Q:But did you all know that lady whose house that man who bought from Ms. (Inaudible)
A:Yes. The Browns - Browns -
Q:Oh.
A:And then they moved up onto the mountain - and - and - and that was just one of my friends. And then the next house was Andrews - it had to be Andrews house on the other side of them. That was where J. B. Andrews used to live. And that is Eugene's house there.
Q:Did J. Y. Brown sold his house to the Snowdens?
A:No. No. He sold his - he at one time lived there - after that time I don't know who owned it in between.
Q:Now, she was acting in (Inaudible) - she was a character around town wasn't she?
A:She was more of a -
Q:And Eileen (Phonetically)?
A:No. She taught school. She was acting in -
Q:Did she go to First Baptist?
A:Yes.
Q:Yes.
A:No.
Q:No.
(INAUDIBLE SECTION)
Q:Did you - do you know anything about the Dice House which was where the firehouse is now?
A:Dice?
Q:Dice.
A:That was - that was Harlen's (Phonetically) house - Harlen.
Q:You mean where the firehouse -
A:Where the firehouse is now.
Q:It was the Harlen house?
A:Harlen - if he's still living - what's that other big house up there - Ganson (Phonetically) used to live up there? Yes. What about the lady that was next door to Harlen's that used to have the big cat? Nora. Yes. And in between the nursing home and Fowler's. Fowler was right at the bridge.
Q:Okay, Fowler's at the bridge.
A:Fowler was - if you go down Garrett Street.
Q:Yes. Then on the east side.
A:That house there is owned by the security company - Airport Security. Anyway there was an old lady that to lived there had big cats.
Q:This is the Fowler house.
A:No. No. Mrs. Fowler lived next to her.
Q:Okay.
A:She used to go to a hat shop down there - somewhere down there - everybody goes to it.
Q:Oh, Morrison's hat shop
A:Morris.
Q:Oh, Morris.
A:I don't remember that - it was the house that (Inaudible)
Q:The one - the one where John Harrison lived at?
A:Yes.
Q:His residence?
A:Yes. Yes. His residence.
Q:That - that was not Eugene's house.
A:No. No. It is Eugene's but Mitchem (Phonetically) lives there.
Q:Mitchem's department store - I mean the men's clothing store.
A:His father - his father - he was raised out of that house - he lived there.
Q:Well, you knew him sort of. Well, now let me ask you, went you went over to Covington to teach - you took the train to Covington?
A:Yes.
Q:And how would you be able to find a place to live, I mean, here you are in a strange town - did the school take care of you?
A:They gave you - you -
Q:Like a little red house?
A:I'd stay at Dr. Dogg (Phonetically) he was - was a colored dentist there and I lived with them. A lot of them - teachers - the teachers used to live rurally.
Q:Yes.
A:Well, that was the only way you could - yes. Things that was going on in the early years - when the church had conventions they had to find people - there were no black folks at all of the hotels that you would go to so, you had to go in search of people.
Q:So, it made traveling really difficult?
A:Yes. Except the train was nice.
Q:Well, did you all - I've heard of some famous black people who knew your - who lived around here - was - Roosevelt Brown. Who was he? There was an article in the paper about him recently.
A:Yes. Well, Roosevelt Brown, he finished high school after I did and he got a scholarship to coach with Leppear Smith (Phonetically) - it felt good that he had a scholarship to Morgan College up in Morgan which is up in Maryland.
Q:Oh.
A:But there again you need to get in touch with - but he wasn't living down here then - he bought this house up there on Ridge now after he had gotten famous - he was playing football.
Q:Oh, no kidding.
A:Yes. His family - his family - his family originally lived up there - over there.
Q:But he didn't go - he didn't go to Jefferson?
A:Yes. He went to Jefferson.
Q:Oh, okay.
A:You must remember now, blacks, other than two houses on the other side of Hartman Mill Road - say three houses when we were living here.
Q:Yes.
A:There were three houses on the other side of Hartman Mill Road that blacks lived in. And from Hartman Mill Road back this way - back this way were black. The others were white. Yes. Yes. And blacks down there on the corner there - down that way too. You know, the little corner down there, right down at the end of the road, the River Road - the River Road - still live there.
Q:Does it have another name?
A:Woodfolk.
Q:Woodfolk and the Woodfolks still - there's still Woodfolks there. Right.
A:There's still a family of Woodfolks still down there.
Q:That we may want to interview. There two other - two older Woodfolks - women that live down there, right?
A:Two - Anne and Lucille. Lucille has retired now hasn't she? I don't know.
Q:She was a nurse too wasn't she?
A:See all these people used to be - see this used to be the last house - all these people down here they weren't - they weren't out here. We were the last house on the street other than that field over there.
Q:Now, did you all have like a garden outside?
A:No. No. No.
Q:Now, when you all had to go somewhere who did - did you daddy have a car?
A:No. We walked - we walked to school - you know, you talking about advantage or whatnot. When I went to school here and that was from elementary school to high school - high school there was no such thing as a day off because of snow. And there were no school buses either. You walked.
Q:Yes. Yes. It was a lot better that way.
A:And there's no - the streets wasn't paved.
Q:Yes.
A:No sidewalks.
Q:How about the first part of Ridge Street. Was that paved or was none of it paved?
A:Yes. The upper part - the pavement started going that a way. Not this way. We had - we had new shoes or good shoes - when you was going to church you wore your good shoes. When we would have to ride we would wear rubber - the rubber would do no good. We would have to put on the old shoes and go to it as far as Lankford Avenue straight to the mall and put them in bags.
Q:And go to church - walk down to church?
A:Huh.
Q:You said you go to church.
A:(Inaudible)
Q:Where did you shop when you were young?
A:The department store was downtown where - what I'd say - it used to be called Roebucks, where there is a lot of controversy going on now about opening up 2nd Street.
Q:Right.
A:Well at - the Grand Piano Outlet Store.
Q:Right. Where was the grocery store
A:And then opposite that - where the Young Men's Shop is there used be a (Inaudible)
Q:They need one now down there.
A:The used to have one across the street when the antique shop is. Store up there - a grocery store up there and the A & P - one time was driving his car around Preston Avenue - cross road junction - the cross road.
Q:Well, that was in later years, what did you do before then?
A:Well, we had to walk.
Q:Oh, really.
A:I mean walk from here to the middle of the side of the river.
(INAUDIBLE SECTION)
A:And it was cart and horse and buggy and wagon on South Street.
Q:Oh.
A:And at the end of this - I don't remember what the name of that was.
Q:Lewis and Clark?
A:Yes.
Q:Lewis and Clark.
A:Yes. Lewis and Clark. Accross from there.
Q:Well, the firehouse was somewhere in there to wasn't it?
A:Yes. It was near the cleaners - Jackson Cleaners - dry cleaners.
Q:Jackson Cleaners was on Ridge?
A:No. No. South Street.
Q:On South Street.
A:No. No. No. On - on - on Water - Water Street.
Q:Now, the firehouse was on South you think, or was it on Water Street?
A:Water - Water I believe.
Q:The old firehouse.
A:I remember the firehouse was on Water Street and there was a teacher who used to teach down at the schools. Lori Campbell (Phonetically) and she lived on Bank Street. So, she lived on Bank Street and Lori Campbell on Bank Street, see, and the firehouse was on Water Street.
Q:Oh, my gosh. So, you rode a horse - you were riding the horses there?
A:We were there - Melissa (Phonetically) was the one who had the farm - Ms. Lyons's (Phonetically) had this horse - horse that had black stirrups.
Q:Mr. Lyons?
A:Ms. Lyons used to be -
Q:Ms. Lyons ran and gave him these horses so he could get everything done.
A:Yes. And he used walk from there here.
Q:From down the street, here.
A:No. No. I mean from where he parked to where he worked.
Q:From Park Street over.
A:Yes. Park Street. You know, that's a walk there. He didn't mind it - I mean he didn't -
Q:He didn't complain.
A:Was no use to complain. What other choice did you have? You didn't have any other choice. It was a long way.
Q:I'll say. When did you get a car then? When you were a young teacher did you get a car?
A:No. Your car was - sure I had a car - I got a car when - when I was over thirty.
Q:Did your parents ever have a car or was it the children when they finally got married?
A:No. They used to have a horse and buggy.
Q:Now, you park the horse and buggy over there, I mean, in when you weren't riding.
A:You would park the horses on Saturday night.
Q:Oh, I see.
A:And you all would come home in the horse and buggy.
Q:Well, now, did the horse and buggy stay out back here or did it have to stay out at the line.
A:Well, it stayed out at the line and stay and they would tell it to stay out at the line (Inaudible)
Q:Well, it would be up to you to go back and get all this stuff.
A:Yes. She was good to him - she cleaned his house when she stopped by and she gave it to him.
Q:Now, do you all remember when they delivered ice in town or was it always -
A:Ice?
Q:You didn't get any ice.
A:Ice came here and sort of - yes. The iceman he used to come all of the time.
Q:Yes. Did the iceman come out here?
A:With a horse. I'm telling you we could write a book.
Q:You could, I mean, it's very interesting. How about a milkman? Did the milkman come out here? We used to have that when I was little.
A:There was - probably used to bring milk out to the counties. Milk time was on Saturdays. (Inaudible)
Q:Okay, so there was an iceman and then the milk got brought - oh, lord.
A:See they used to have to bring milk for her and the milkman from Scottsville to deliver milk - deliver milk 4:00 in the morning. And I remember a lot of times when the milk (Inaudible)
Q:(Inaudible) could even answer the life on Ridge Street. I liked that iceman because we still have an iceman in New Orleans when I was first married.
A:And these sort of - these were men that sold what you want. Therefore they would -
Q:Did you all put it out back in the long icebox?
A:In the old times you used to put it into the water, you know, with the milk -
Q:And when you were young there was no electricity here.
A:No.
Q:And no running water. And that came when you were - how old were you when you got that?
A:I don't remember - we used to have a spigot out in the - in order to have water - in order to have water at all we used to have to get water from the well - the well over there.
Q:So, did that belong to somebody or could everyone?
A:You had to go out and anybody could get the water because it was - you had a well out in the yard. And there was a spring back there - there was a spring down on 5th Street and we used to go down there and get spring water.
Q:Oh. Was it near what other street - 5th Street and what else.
A:That street wasn't - but people would walk there up to the - the - the - out there near (Inaudible) Bell was out there - a family named Bell another family named -
Q:Ray Bell?
A:No. No. No. Not Ray. Not Ray.
Q:What was the older family that lived across the street in that older house?
A:They're not there now.
Q:But what was the name of the family?
A:The people who lived there? Fleming?
Q:Fleming?
A:F-l-e-m-i-n-g. He was an old bachelor.
Q:Oh, he doesn't have any descendants.
A:He used to have a big garden outside that house and all the way down he used to have a garden. Well, the house wasn't as large as it is now was it? No. Well, this house wasn't as large as it is now. There - there was a bedroom and that was a living room and the kitchen was back there where the dinning room is now. You would come in here near that door this whole place was real chimney like. (Inaudible) came out of this hole here.
Q:Oh, really? How neat.
A:Came out of this hole.
Q:How wonderful. How old is the house?
A:Well, it got to be a little over two hundred because I'm eighty-five and I was born here.
Q:And it was an old house then when your daddy bought it.
A:Oh, yes.
Q:So, this is probably one of the oldest houses in Charlottesville then. Would that be -
A:I wouldn't know - I'm eighty-five. Sixty-six (Inaudible) I don't want any other - yes. I don't know whether this house is the oldest or not. I know we all know long this house was here but we don't know who, you know, who's is longest.
Q:This one here - are you talking about -
A:That one there has always been there since we've been here.
Q:But this - that is Virginia Ross's family home.
A:No. That's behind there.
Q:Oh, behind there. You don't the name of the family that was there when you were growing up?
A:It was a family of people that lived there - the Barbours (Phonetically), the Barbours lived there. All of them died there. Along down that side - the house - the houses that were down in here -
Q:This whole thing went into a hole in the ground - it's all way underneath.
A:Those - those - those things - and most of the houses on this side they rented - they rented.
Q:They were turned into town houses.
A:Ms. Curry (Phonetically) and their house was there (Inaudible) and the Gordons, and then the Moores -
Q:That's the name -
A:All of those houses are gone.
Q:That's where the Gordons were hand laid.
A:Yes. Hand laid.
Q:Were they all torn down.
A:Yes. All of them on that side.
Q:And those were torn down?
A:Yes. And all of those houses were torn down - they were torn down when they went to rebuild them.
Q:Yes. And those are ugly looking homes.
A:They do, yes. They did do a -
Q:And that hurts them a little bit.
A:Yes.
Q:They were built to be rented houses.
A:Huh?
Q:They were built to be rented houses.
A:(Inaudible)
Q:And not have any of the homes. So, that was a family house and you say that the Ward's lived across the street.
A:Yes.
(INAUDIBLE SECTION)
Q:The who? The Johnsons?
A:They lived over there didn't they - yes.
Q:But they lived over there a long time?
A:For a good while - I remember growing up with them on Ridge - Ridge Street - they were on Oak Street.
Q:I think we have a short tape - this one should go a little more. So, the Dodsons ran it and then they bought it on Ridge Street?
A:Yes. They bought up on the corner of Oak and Ridge.
Q:Are they there any more?
A:Yes. She's there.
Q:Oh, I didn't know that. Can you tell us about Jenny Porter there at (Inaudible)
A:Isn't that about a long time ago. It was owned by Emmitt Leafon (Phonetically) - Emmitt Leafon is the former mayor of Charlottesville used to live there with his wife and two children. Which all now are dead.
Q:He was a former mayor.
A:Yes. They are all dead.
(End of audio portion available online)
Q:Do you have any more questions for them - they look tired. Well, we better get along here. This has been fun.
A:I have enjoyed it immensely.
Q:I'm glad you all have. We've learned a lot.
A:There's three of us here and that's all that's left.
Q:Well, that's the way to go.
A:Don't leave off with the puppy.
Q:We won't leave off with the puppy. What's her name.
A:Don't worry because she would be all over the top of you. We've never been without a dog. A boxer - they had boxers. They had all sorts of dogs.
Q:Now, what picture is that - who drew that picture - that's nice.
A:That's a picture his mother did across the street. I think that's her husband's son playing.
Q:They're new comers though.
A:They - they - they've been around here for thirty years.
Q:Those are nice houses down there.
A:And those people that came all down here - those people are nice.
(Thereupon this tape ended.)

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Virginia Center for Digital History, University of Virginia
This interview is publically accessible
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